MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



79 



28 October, 1919.] 



MR. THOMAS WILLIAMS. 



[Continued. 



1-3,753. So that production on these farms is pro- 

 duced practically by sweated I..bour, is it not? You 

 might call it sweated labour. 



10.754. That is unpaid labour or much underpaid 

 labour: 1 Yes, that has been the case. 



15.755. Arc many of these farms dairy farms? 

 They were not dairy farms in those times, but tlie 

 tendency now is to make them into dairy farms 

 where suitable. 



15.756. Does that form of unpaid labour still sur- 

 vive? Yes. 



15.757. So that there is a great deal of production 

 from these farms at costs much below those which 

 would obtain if the labour were paid? Quite. 



15.758. When you use the word "unproductive" 

 farms, you mean farms that would not pay their way 

 if the labour were paid for? Yes. 



15.759. Do the families of these farmers have any 

 restriction of hours? No, they usually work very 

 long hours. 



15.760. At all seasons of the jear? Yes, usually. 



15.761. So that that is an additional burden laid 

 upon these farms? It is. 



10.762. Again reducing the cost of their produc- 

 tion? Yes. 



15.763. You said that the cost of production was 

 greater on small than on large farms. Does what 

 you have said now not modify that in respect of 

 dairying, for example, where there is no use of large 

 mechanical implements? Yes, it might do. 



15.764. You mean that but for that cheap labour 

 their cost of production would l>e Hgher, because they 

 cannot afford to employ implements? Quite. 



15 ; 765. Have you ever considered how far the em- 

 ployment of implements can be facilitated by co- 

 operation ? It can be. 



15.766. Are you aware of what is practised in that 

 respect by the smallholders in Ireland? Yes. I do 

 not say it is done very extensively so far as the 

 implements are concerned in Wales; there are diffi 

 culties about that. 



15.767. Naturally, because people want to reap and 

 bind all on the same day? All at the same time. 



l."i,768. But, in regard to some implements, you 

 recognise tho importance of co-operation?- Yes, and 

 there is an increasing tendency to do that where it 



l"i.7(iO. You have spoken a good deal of tho import- 

 ance of security of tenure, but I gather you do not 

 put bpforo us any plan by which security of tenure 

 is to bo secured except thnt you advocate the pur- 

 chase of their holdings by t!-e tenants ? That, I 

 should put in the fore-front. 



1-~>.770. If land purchase by the tenants were to 

 become general, something would need to be done for 

 their protection by legislation, would it not? Yes. 



16.771. Otherwise the price of land would be even 

 IMMI-I- i-\:i^i;i-rated than it is at the present? Quito. 



15.772. So that that would involve some kind of 

 Purchase Bill or scheme? Yes 



15.773. You have no other suggestions on that sub- 

 ject? No, I have not gone into that matter at pre- 

 sent. 



15.774. You have spoken of tho practice in Wales. 

 By whom is the fixed equipment of the farms sup- 

 plied in Wales? Are you referring to implements 

 and machinery? 



15.775. The buildings? The landlord supplies them. 



15.776. Always? Yes. Sometimes the tenant 

 farmer will add to them for his own convenience. 



15.777. Under the Agricultural Holdings Act? 

 Yes. 



15.778. Speaking broadly, the rule is that the farm 

 is equipped as a farm by the landlord? Yes, and 

 maintained. 



15.779. He spends what requires to be spent on 

 repairs? Yes, of the structure. That is the general 

 rule. 



15.780. The equipment o f these small farms is a 

 expensive matter in proportion to their rental? 



It is. 



15.781. So that a considerable part of the rental 

 is interest on expenditure? Yes, that is partly the 

 reason why BO many of these small farms have been 

 put together in Wales in past years. 



15.782. Because it was not possible to make them 

 yield a rent adequate to the cost of maintaining 

 their buildings? That is so. 



15.783. You say that the present state of the farm 

 buildings is deplorable? I should say they are bad. 



15.784. I was quoting your own word. You use 

 the word "deplorable" in your second paragraph? 

 That word is perhaps too strong. 



15.785. Are they inadequate or are they out of 

 repair? Both, but generally this has reference to 

 the bad state of repair, because nothing could be 

 done to them for some years past. 



15.786. In the case of dairy farms, are they 

 properly equipped with cow houses? That is a very 

 great difficulty. The cow buildings are mostly bad, 

 and not intended to meet the present-day require- 

 ments. 



15.787. They are merely adapted from feeding- 

 houses to cow-houses? Yes. 



15.788. You have a wet climate, have you not? 

 Yes, very. 



15.789. Are you equipped with hay sheds and corn 

 sheds, at all? Yes, to some evicnt we are 



15.790. There is one point with regard to land pur- 

 chase that I did not understand. You say the 

 County Councils are buying land in Wales? Yes, 

 for small holdings. 



15.791. Do they pay higher prices for land than 

 can be afforded by ordinary tenants? Not in all 

 cases. 



15.792. Are they keen competitors? They are, 

 but the County Councils do not always bid against 

 the sitting tenant if they can avoid it. 



15.793. You say you have no leases, speaking 

 generally? No, it is not often there are leases. 



15.794. Is that because the tenants do not wish 

 them or is it because the proprietors are not willing 

 to grant them? On the whole I do not think either 

 party is .anxious for leases. 



15.795. You are aware, I hare, no doubt, that the 

 system in Scotland is a leasehold system over long 

 periods? Yes. 



15.796. And that that is a system which Scotch 

 farmers would under no conditions give up. Is that 

 within your knowledge? Yes, I have heard of that. 



15.797. Can you explain why it is that the system 

 to which Scotch farmers attach so much importance 

 is so unpopular in Wales? I am afraid I cannot 

 exactly explain it satisfactorily. 



16.798. What is the objection to a lease. It does 

 give, at all events for a period security of tenure? 

 Yes. 



15.799. A period perhaps of 14 years or 19 years? 

 Yes. 



15.800. Why does that degree of security not com- 

 mend itself to Welsh farmers? Even if it is a period 

 of 14 years the farmer is working up the farm only 

 to a certain pitch; he has no permanent security. 



15.801. He has a 14 years' security? Yes, but 

 what he puts into it he wants to be assured that if 

 ho does not himself, his descendants will reap the 

 full benefit of it. 



15.802. That is to say the objection to the lease 

 is that it induces him to spend more upon improve- 

 ments and that the Agricultural Holdings Act does 

 not secure him adequately, by way of compensation, 

 for those improvements? Yes, quite. 



15.803. So that a leasehold system with adequate 

 amendment of the Agricultural Holdings Act would 

 seem to you to serve the purpose? It would go a 

 good way to serve the purpose. 



15.804. You gave some answers that I did not 

 understand about the relative rates of pay of skilled 

 labour and unskilled labour. How does that arise? 

 Why is it that unskilled labour is paid so nearly at 

 the same rate as skilled labour? Is 'it due to the 

 Wages Board? Yes. 



15.805. Apart from that would you not lose them 

 from the industry if you did not pay young men on 

 a scale sufficient to keep them from being attracted 

 by other industries? Yes, I am afraid we would lose 

 more of them. 





