ROYAL COMMISSION ON AGRICULTURE. 



88 Odobtr, 1'Jl'J.j 



MK. THOMAS WILLIAMS. 



\Cantinnfil. 



15,806. Really, it is more a question of economic 

 competition in tho cane of those young men than of 

 interference by tho Wages Board which make* their 

 pay too high? Yes, that is to be considered. That 

 is the fact, but we are losing them in any case. 



I". -"7 l>. > you think that the prospect of better 

 wages an lli- \ I.. ' .iim> older would attract them morn 

 to agriculture? I should say so. 



15,80-. Mr. Anker NinimoiM: 1 take it that Wales 

 would not be regarded as a corn-growing area at all?-- 

 No, it is nut. 



15.809. What would you say nuld be the arable 

 proportion as between grass and arable, taking 50 

 acre farms right through. How much arable land do 

 you get in every 50 acres? I could only say roughly. 



15.810. That is what I want? I should say 8. 



15.811. The agricultural industry in Wales has been 

 i h jelly the raising of young stork with a certain 

 amount of dairy farming, is it not? That is so. 



15.812. And the dairy farming is on the increase? 

 Yes. 



l.'i.-l.'i. Kithcr from your own experience or from 

 what you have heard would you say that Wales 

 suffered during those bad times of the 'eighties and 

 'nineties to anything like the extent England 

 suffered' Yes, I should say they did I should say 

 they suffered worse perhaps. 



15.814. Although they are not corn growers? They 

 Riilferod because of the very bad prices they received 

 for the stock they raised, but since then there has 

 been a gradual improvement. 



15.815. Roughly what would your rents be may I 

 ask what your own rent is for the 500 acres you 

 farm - -700 for the 500 acre*. 



15.816. Would the rents of the smaller holdings be 

 about that rate or less or what? Taking the average, 

 it would be lees. 



16.817. Have you any sheep-farming in Wales? 

 Yes, sheep-farming is carried on very extensively in 

 the mountains. 



15.818. Would you be inclined to agree that' perhaps 

 no class of men on ftio, land taking the last "XI years 

 h:i~ worked much harder than the smallholder? That 

 is absolutely the case. 



15.819. They have had the hardest battle of all? 

 Yes. 



15.820. Would you say to-day that the smallholder 

 is anything like so well off as the man who is regularly 

 employed at a fixed wage on the farm ? Yes, I should 

 say he would be to-day perhaps as well off, but ho has 

 not always been. The difficulty is that he is in :m 

 uncertain position, whereas the wage earner is sure 

 to get so much each year. This year tho small farmer 

 will be far worse off than his labouring man because 

 he will not really, in many cases, be able to make 

 ends meet. 



15.H21. The corn he grew under ordinary conditions 

 was grown almost entirely for food for his cattle? 

 Yes. 



I.V.-ijfJ. He did not grow corn to sell? No, and he 

 usually purchased a lot of feeding stuffs in addition 

 to raising all his own corn. 



15.827. I will not repeat questions that have 

 already boon put to you, but do you think if to-day- 

 leases were offered to the tenants in Wales they would 

 be readily taken up? No, I do not think it would 

 meet the case so far an the farming world is con- 

 cerned. 



15.828. You prefer as you have already said tin- 

 occupying ownership? Yes, if the money could be 

 got. 



lo .-'/'. With Sim.- ciid for purchasing:- Yes. 



l-V-:i. If the State found money for that the 

 State would have to have a considerable voice in 

 deciding what was the value of the holding? The 

 holdings could go t a fair value. 



15,831. That would mean a Land Court to M-ttle 

 value* it would mean some form of a Land Court? 

 Yes. 



!" .2. If that were M> would you agree if a man 

 (ought his farm with State-aided purchase money . 

 that ho should he debarred from wiling it at a big 

 profit? That is a question I woi-ld not like to answer 

 at present. 



15.833. May I put it in this way : have you not 

 had considerate -xjiei K-IU in \\ 'ales ae wo have had 

 in Kngland where owners of properties in order to 

 meet old tenants have sold their holdings to the 

 tenants at a low price in order to respond to the 

 pathetic appeals that the occupiers did not want to 

 be disturbed from their homes and that within a 

 very short time those occupiers having Unight at tin- 

 low prices had IMVII tempted to sell at MM higher 

 prices which prevailed and had cleared out?' Yes, 

 there have been such cases. I have known of cases 

 where, landlords have sold the farms to the tenants 

 at less than they would really ivuli.se in competition 

 at auction, but of course if a Land Court is accepted 

 it must be accepted ell round if anv one want* to 

 sell. 



15.834. You agree it would be extremely difficult 

 to administer a differential guarantee as between one 

 district and another? That is a. very difficult matter. 



16.835. Practically impossible? Yes that is the 

 main trouble. 



16.836. In ordinary normal times tin- market price 

 has been universal generally speaking all over the 

 country ? Yes. 



15.837. Therefore, if any guarantee were given it 

 would have to lie more or less of a universal charac- 

 ter? It would. Of course- the |xx>r land that, does 

 not produce its crop would have to be rented accord- 

 ingly. 



15.838. If the Government decided to guarantee 

 do you consider 1 want you just to think this over 

 before you answer it that in the national interests 

 it would bo a right thing for the fanners of this 

 country to nsk that a profit, should he guaranteed? 

 To ask that a reasonable return should IM- secured 

 for their labour. 



15.839. That return would mean a profit, would 

 it not? It might not necessarily mean a profit. 



15,8-10. Oo you not recognise that if the State 

 did such a thing the farmer would have to be under 

 very severe control by the State? That is just the 

 point the Welsh farmer objects to too much control. 



15,841. He would rather be free without a 

 guarantee than have a big guarantee with strict 

 control? Yes. I think if tin's control is going to 

 be carried on and be permanent that some guarantee 

 just for the present emergency would have the effect 

 of pacifying his mind. 



15,84'_'. On the question of game, did I understand 

 you to say that the pheasants do more barm than 

 rabbits in your district? I would not like i 

 that is general. I personally have not had very- 

 wide experience of a tiling like that. 



15.843. Wales is a pretty good ..porting country. 

 is it not? Yes. pretty good. Pheasant^ do con- 

 siderable damage, but on the best managed farm the 

 rabbits are pretty well kept down by the farmer 

 himself. He exercises his rights on the besf managed 

 farms. The' main trouble now is that hiudl >-iU olten 

 lent the shoot to a separate tenant, thus there are 

 two tenants on the same farm. 



15.844. You were asked a question about cottages. 

 What is your opinion with regard to the nece-sity 

 of there being a certain number of cottages tied 

 to the farm? I am very definite on thai that it 

 is important that a certain number of cottages 

 should be tied to tho farms. 



1">>|.">. Would you not say cottages are just as 

 essential as barns and cow-houses and stables- 

 They are. 



!"i.-lii. Mr. Ovrrninn : You farm ">00 acres of 

 land? Y 



15,847. You say this year you have 120 arres 

 under the p'ough? Yes. approximately. 



16,84. In 1914 you had 80 acres under the plough? 

 Yes. 



15. 8)!'. So that you have ploughed up an 

 additional 10 acres? That is so. 



15,8oO. Was that done by request of the War 

 Agricultural Committee, or under an Order? It was 

 done at the request of the War Agricultural Com- 

 mittee. I was a member of the Committee and I 

 did the full quarter as requested to do. 



