ROYAL COMMISSION ON AGRICULTURE. 



18 Ociobfr, 1919.] 



M. THOMAS WILLIAMS. 



[Continued. 



15,899. I agree. That u a ver\ ditii r.-ni matter 

 But so far as a farm which consist* of between M and 

 100 acre* they'would certainly employ outside labour, 

 would they:' Yes. 



15.893. \ou am aware, I suppose, that the av< 

 weekly wage now is 37s. <1. for the whole of Wales? 

 Yet. 



16.894. That is for a week of CO hours in the summer 

 and a week of 48 hours in tho win;- 



I am not quite sure whether that applies to the whole 

 of Wales, but I presume it does. 



15.895. Yea, I have the official figures boi.-re in.-. 

 What wen- the average number of bourn worked in 

 Wales before the ('-urn Production Act nun,- in at all? 

 The recognised usual hours were from ti to (i with 

 half an hour in the morning ami an hour for the 

 mid-day meal. 



15.896. How many hours a week would that be: 

 .!ly have not worked it out. 



l.V-<97. That is 10} hours a day? Yes. 



~98. Did they work a full 'day on Saturday - 

 Yes. 



15.899. That would be 63 in the summer? Yes. 



15.900. So to the 50 hours to get the same length of 

 work you would have to add on 13 hours for the 

 week P Yea. 



15.901. 13 hours at lOd. is 10s. 10d.? Yes. 



15.902. If you add 13s. lOd. on to the 37s. 6d. that 

 is what a farmer to-day has to pay his man for the 

 same hours that his man worko 1 before the Corn Pro- 

 durtion Act, making 48s. 4d. altogether? Yes. 



15.903. I find by the figures that the average total 

 earnings of the man for Wales according to the Board 

 of Trade in 1907 was 18s. a week including extras 

 and for tho Central Land Association 1912-13 20s 7.1 

 a week? Ye*. 



15.904. If that is correct the wages to-day are con- 

 siderably more than double? They are. 



15.905. Speaking off-hand it is getting on to nearly 

 150 per cent, increase? Yes. 



15.906. Is it possible in your view that the farmer 

 can continue to pay these increased wages where he 

 employs outside labour unless he has some guarantee 

 for tho price of the cereals he is growing? He will 

 do it with less confidence than if he knew what the 

 future was likely to bring forth. 



15.907. Tfiat is hardly an answer to the question I 

 put. If wages have gone up from 20s. 7d. a week to 

 48s. 4d. a week will the farmer bo likely to be able to 

 grow corn if there is no guarantee of the prices that 

 he is to receive for hi* produce? I presume you 

 mean under present conditions and if present prires 

 prevail. 



15.908. Not if present prices prevail at all, but 

 what we may expect in the future with free competi- 

 tion? That is problematical. If present prires are 

 not so high in the future he will not be able to go on 

 without a guarantee. 



"(9. Do vou mean that if he hns present prices 

 he will be able to pay the present rate of wages :m<l 

 to continue to grow corn;' Yes. T should snv so. 



1.V910. At present prires the farmer in Wales will 

 be able to pav the present rates of wage- and make a 

 profit on his rorn? I will not confine it to the 

 present price* of rorn. because rorn is a small n 

 in the balance sheet of tho WcMi farmer even in 

 present years. His return from rorn is not a verv 

 great matter, but if his return from stock and nil h<' 

 produce remain nt n good figure it nrirht bo |>ossiblo 

 for him to pay the present rate of wagon. 



1.1911. Do von share tho view that I hold that in 

 thr future, whether near or further off. the com 

 l>et it ion of world prices and world supplies will send 

 prices down Thnt in tho focliiur of uneasiness which 

 exist* in tho minds of tho Welsh fnrmor nt the !< 

 time thnt when prices come down the difficulty will 

 be in bringing tho priro of labour down with them 



l. r i.!>12. Have vou anv nugtostion to put before the' 

 Commission of what ought to IK- done' You moan to 

 keep the nriro of wage* up' 



15.013 No. to i-nnhle trio farmer to t>av tho present 

 rte of wages nnd. .if rniirse. to keep the wages up 

 nlso You in Wales are subject to the Corn Prn 

 dnetion Act? To*. 



l/i.914. T'nder tho Corn Production Art wage* are 

 fixed nuitr irrespective of the selling prii -if corn or 

 anything grown on the farm? Ten 



I. '>.'.'!"). As long as that system continues have you 

 any suggestion to make as to how the farmer can lie 

 put in a position to pay the wages so fixed? I think 

 we have gone over that partly. Our main trouble in 

 the past has been foreign competition which has kept 

 MIII- produce at such alow price. 



K..!H(i. You can assume that that will continue 

 io think, as I understand, that a guarantee is 

 essential? Yes. 



15.917. If you have such a large number of farmers 

 who are smallholders and who are not paying wages 

 and who. therfore. do not suffer in their expenditure 

 from paying the minimum rate of wage* might it not 

 I*- to their advantage that there should NO no 

 guarantee or would it be to their advantage?- If a 

 farmer and his son are working a farm they expect 

 some return for their labour; they like to feel they 

 arc secured. 



15.918. I suppose if there was a guarantee of roioal 

 prices the smallholder would get the full licm-fit 

 because he would get the guaranteed price:- Quite. 



15.919. The only question is whether it would be 

 necessary for them to have it? Yes. 



15.920. .What is your view about it?- -I think if it 

 is necessary for one it is necessary for all. 



15.921. You think it would be advisable? Yes. 



15.922. Would there be any difficulty in having two 

 classes of farmer alongside each other under thus,. 

 conditions one man who is not bound to pay tln> 

 minimum wage and the other who ix'r No. I do not 

 think so. The farmer's son if he worked without an 

 actual fixed wage under present conditions \umld 

 certainly expect to receive some-thing for his labour 

 nt some time or other. 



15.923. He would expect to receive it, but he is 

 not entitled legally, as far as I can gather, to get it. 

 because there is no contract of service? Quito, but 

 he would expect it. At the present time I think the 

 feeling is that he would more or less claim it. li 

 there was a prospect of sinking his money in the 

 capital for the time being and having it later on that 

 would be an inducement for him to go on. 



'-4. Have you considered at all the effect of 

 having these two systems going on alongside each 

 other, the smallholder who is not bound to pay the 

 fixed rate of wages, and another farmer, who is also 

 perhaps a small farmer, who is bound to pay tho fixed 

 minimum rate of wages? I do not consider from the 

 economic point of view that there are two systems at 

 all. In the one rase the farmer pays out wages every 

 week or year as the case might be and in the other 

 he reserves the farm for his son until such time as 

 tin- son requires it to farm for himself. That is the 

 only difference in my view 



16,925. You consider there is no difficulty in having 

 the two systems alongside each other:- A- I -.ay I do 

 not consider them ns two systems. 



l"i. !>.'(;. Supposing tin- future has in store for us 

 a Is hour week with no overtime or a very limited 

 am-. iin( O f overtime to lx> worked what do you sayP 

 That in my view would be absolutely fatal. 



15,987, Fatal to farming? -Yes. 



1.">.!P28. First of all will you give me tin- reason 

 why you think a 48 hour week would he fatal with 

 i In- very limited amount of overtime which I under- 

 stand will be allowed? Of course it would ii.-vd in 

 many rasm practically two staffs of men. Tin-re is 

 the milking industry which is a growing industry in 

 Wales; it would In- i|iiite impossible to carry that 

 industry out satisfactorily under the (* hours. 



''-.'!). Tho men who milked the row in the morn- 

 ing could not milk it in tho evening? No, and in 

 addition to that there are tho very difficult climatic 

 conditions we hav < .leal with in Wnlos which would 

 render the work impossible I'siinlly our men do tho 

 work now nnd wo do not find very murh difficulty 

 with it when the sun is shining, aiid in Wales they 

 are not proasod very hnrd when the is un- 



u i table and if such a system as n IS hour week were 

 established it would 1- filial. 



|.">. !:). Farming could not continue? 1 do not 

 think it could with success and nothing would send 

 land out of cultivation more quickly in Wales than a 

 > "dnetion of the present hours. 



