MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



83 



28 October, 1919.] 



MR. THOMAS WILLIAMS. 



{Continued. 



15.931. Do I understand that one of the reasons 

 which causes you to come to that conclusion is that 

 Wales is a particularly wet country and you have 

 to take advantage of every opportunity of sunshine 

 that you get to carry on your work ? Yes, that is so, 

 and my own experience is that the men themselves 

 realise it, and I do not think they want any altera- 

 tion. That is absolutely my experience in the matter 

 there is so much give and take between the men 

 and the farmer in Wales. I am positive the men are 

 not looking for any further reduction of hours in 

 Wales. 



15.932. If such a reduction did come about would 

 that really create unfairness between the small- 

 holder, the man who worked his farm not being sub- 

 ject to paying the minimum wage and working re- 

 stricted hours and the man who was subject to doing 

 so? It would give a preference to the man who 

 worked his holding himself in that case. 



15.933. He and his family could work whenever 

 the sun was shining, whereas the man with the hired 

 labour could not? Yes, in my view it would give a 

 preference to the man who worked his farm with his 

 family. 



15.934. Mr. Duncan: On that point of the limita- 

 tion of hours, what have you in view when you speak 

 of the difficulty of a 48 hours week with a limited 

 amount of overtime? Of course, if this comes about 

 I presume it is intended that overtime should be 

 worked only by special permission, and our difficulty 

 is to get special permits when the sun comes out at 

 one part of the day. 



!.">.! '35. Do you know if any proposals have 

 actually been made of this nature? Of a 48 hours 

 week ? " 



15.936. Yes? I presunm MMIH- IH ads <>f Labour 

 Organisations have suggested that this -18 hours 

 should be inrlmli <! in the Hill which is coming before 

 Parliament hortly. 



15.937. Aro you referring now to the Hours of 

 Employment Bill Xo. 2? Yes. 



15,938 Have you read that Bill?- No. 



15.939. You cannot say whether it is proposed that 

 overtime can be worked only with special permits? 

 I am given to understand that overtime may be 

 worked by permits by permission. 



15.940. If I assure von there is nothing of that 

 kind in the Bill woulid that modify your view? I 

 think I have the Bill in my pocket nt the present 

 moment. 



15.941. Will you look at it and point to any section 

 where that is laid down? If it is not laid down I 

 do not see the good of the 48 hour legal enactment. 



15.942. I think if you look into the Bill you will 

 see there is special provision made for agreement 

 being como to as to the limitation of overtime, but 

 thiTo is no provision that overtime can only be worked 

 under special permits? An agreement yes. That 

 amount* to the same thing practically does it not? 



15.943. The agreement, has to be made in the 

 industry by the responsible organisations on both 

 sides. Do you anticipate that it would be impossible 

 in Wales between your Farmers' Union and the 

 organisations of the workmen to come to a working 

 agreement on these points? I think there would be 

 lew difficulty by leaving the 48 hours out altogether. 



l-">!>44. It would create other difficulties, would it 

 not if we left agriculture out of legislation? I do 

 not know that it would be less satisfactory. 



1-5.945. But you have not read the terms of the 

 Bill? I know it is not included in the Bill at all. 



15.946. You have not read the terms rf the Bill 

 which it is proposed to apply to agriculture? All I 

 cjn say in regard to that is that I believe the diffi- 

 culties of farmers who employ labour as far as hours 

 aro concerned are very serious at present, and if anv 

 further alteration is made in that direction it will 

 Tily have a damaging effect on increased food 

 production. 



I ">.'' 17. The question put to you was have you read 

 tin- terms of the Bill No, 1 have said so before. 



1'i.dlS. With regard to the question of wages in 

 W;I|CK are the wages which are actually paid to the 

 workmen the rates fixed by the Agricultural Wages 

 TJnurd or are higher rates paid? I do not quite follow 

 your question. 



26370 



15.949. There are minimum rates fixed by the 

 Agricultural Wages Board. Are these rates actually 

 paid or are higher rates paid? Usually they are tho 

 rates paid ; there might be higher rates paid in some 

 cases. 



15.950. Is there any different rate paid by farmers 

 in those districts which are nearer to the industrial 

 areas? There might be. 



15.951. Is it in the districts nearer to the industrial 

 areas that higher rates are paid? It has been so 

 1 believe, but since the higher rates which have been 

 fixed recently have been in operation I do not think 

 there would be very much difference, but there has 

 been a difference. 



15.952. Speaking generally the agricultural work- 

 men in Wales are paid the rates fixed by the Wages 

 Board? Yes, I should say so. 



15.953. I think you said in reply to one of the 

 Commissioners that it was the practice on the small 

 farms where employed workmen were not engaged for 

 the members of the family not to be paid actual 

 wages? That is so. 



15.954. In those cases are the returns on the farming 

 operations retained as a family fund from which 

 afterwards the sons or daughters are set up? During 

 the years I remember in too many cases there was no 

 fund at all : there was just enough to make a com- 

 fortable living without any sinking fund or anv 

 wages that would be due to them. 



15.955. What happened to the sons and daughters 

 of those families? In a good many cases the sons 

 left the farm and went to some other work. 



15.956. The parents were not able to set them up? 

 In a great number of cases the sons of small farmers 

 have gone into service on larger farms. 



15.957. And earned wages there? Yes. 



15.958. You say a good deal in your evidence about 

 the attachment of the farmers in Wales to the land. 

 Is it the case that you have farms continuing for any 

 long time in the possession of the same family? Yes, 

 it is quite a common thing for generations of families 

 to farm the same land. 



1-6,959. Judged by the actual results it would seem 

 as if the family fund had been sufficient to retain the 

 family in farming? It would retain the family for 

 the farmer's lifetime, and by a struggle it often 

 happens that ono of the sons would be able to carry 

 it on in some way or another. That has been the 

 general history. 



15.960. Do you find that many of the smaller holders 

 are able to get on in their holdings and to go on in 

 that way? For instance, you have stated yourself 

 that you started in a smallholding and are now farm- 

 ing a 500 acre farm? Yea. 



15.961. Is your case unusual in Wales? Yes, I 

 should Bay so. I belong to long generations of 

 farmers. My father was a farmer before me, other- 

 wise I should not have been able to do what I have. 



15.962. During your time you developed from the 

 smallholding to the largo farm? Yes, but I do not 

 say my case is an actual or fair illustration of things 

 generally. My father farmed extensively. I have 

 not made all I have got quite by the sweat of my 

 brow. 



15,963! It is not usual, then, for the smallholders 

 to go up the ladder? Oh, yes, smallholders do rise 

 gradually, but in past vears there was not so much 

 of it has been the case in more recent years. 



15.964. From what year would you date the improve- 

 ment? When I remember first of all, when I began 

 to farm, it was a struggle for existence 25 years ago, 

 but since then conditions have gradually improved 

 and small farmers in many cases have gone up, but 

 it has been those men who have worked hard and for 

 long hours and applied themselves to their industry in 

 everv possible way. and saved every penny that could 

 be saved who have gone up. 



15.965. There has been an improvement during the 

 past 25 years leaving out of account the war con- 

 ditions?- Yes. there has. 



15.966. I think you stated that farmers in Wales 

 did not keep accounts? Quite. 



15.967. Do you mean by that that they are not 

 able to tell the results of their farming? They know 

 their results too well, and always have. 



F3 



