84 



ROYAL COMMISSION ON AGRICULTURE. 



28 October, 1919.] 



Mt. THOMAS WILLIAMS. 



15,968. Without keeping accounts? Ye*; I should 

 say they knew the result. A farmer in a small way 



would know the result; but he is not in the habit <>f 

 pi.tting lin cvei\ ]'imy 'made and every penny 

 expended as every week is going on. 



15,068. But would most of thorn be able to present 

 an income ami expenditure account, leaving out of 

 account what you may call the personal expenditure? 

 Would they know what the result of tin- funning is? 

 They know too well the result after the year is 

 completed. 



CO. How is it, if they do not keep any income 

 and expenditure account, that they can tell the results 

 of the farming? They take into consideration the 

 value of their stock ; but as tin- st. k fluctuates from 

 year to year so much according to the seasons and 

 the conditions, that is not usually taken into con- 

 sideration. If there is any balance at the bank < 

 any money in their pocket, they know how much that 

 is, and usually it has been very easily counted. 



1~>.!'~1. I think you stated in reply to one of 

 t)u< Commissioners, that there is ;i very strong objec- 

 tion on the part of the farmers in Wales to officials. 

 What officials had you in view when you were making 

 that .statement? I do not know that I had any 

 particular set of officials in view ; but during the 

 whole of the Corn Production Act the whole thing 

 has been ruled by officials. It must necessarily have 

 been to have done what was done. Now the farmers 

 think that conditions are different, and that should as 

 far as possible be abolished and a return made as 

 far as possible to the old order of things. 



1-V.C'J. Were these officials appointed by the Board 

 of Agriculture, or were they appointed by tho War 

 Executive Committees? Partly ; and partly by the 

 Board of Agriculture on their own in some cases, 

 especially in regard to the recent inspection. I think 

 perhaps that has aroused as much feeling as anything 

 about prices; but a great number of officials has been 

 appointed hy the Agricultural Executive Committees 

 at the direction of the Board to carry out Cultivation 

 Orders. 



15.973. How many officials do you have in a county 

 appointed by your War Executive Committee? It is 

 rather difficult to estimate, but they have been re- 

 duced. There are not so many as there were at one 

 time. 



15.974. Are you referring to officials appointed by 

 the Food Ministry? Yes; the whole thing that 

 included. 



75. 3/r. Dallas: Yon say in your statement Uiat 

 it is to the advantage of the labourer and the farmer 

 that part of the wages should be paid in kind. I 

 suppose you are aware that this was the customary 

 method of paying workers in most of the industries 

 in the country at one time? Quite. 



15,976. And that tin- workers have gradually got 

 rid of it because they did not want it? I do not 

 know about most industries. I would not like to say 

 that; hut it is a long time hack that that was so. 



1">.!77. It prevailed in other industries, to put it in 

 th.it way? I do not know even that. 



15.978. Do you not find thnt the labourers object to 

 it t>-day ? No. I find that the farm labourer is 

 very reluctant to lose any of the' usual |>eri|iiisit. 



16.979. He would rather have the money, would lie 

 not. than the perquisites? I do not think so. I think 

 he is very anxious to claim the perquisites, especially 

 Miino <if them like milk, potatoes and that sort of 

 thing. 



15,990. And li. anxious to claim as many 



extras as he can ; hut is ho not more anxious to get 

 all his wages in nmt,. 1 do not know ; I do not 



think ho in. 



-I Would von he surprised if I told you from 



!.-rahle experience in different part* of the 



country and nearly all the counties nf Kngland. that 



the general feeling amongst, the labourers is that 



!> TIM!. want payment in kind, hut want 

 ' >ant to he able to determine in their own way 



how they will *pcnd the money they have* T cannot, 

 quite fay that in my experience. I think myself that 

 labourer* would prefer doing with less money and 

 not losing these main perquisites. 



15.982. Supposing the labourer got his wages in 

 full in money and lie named to buy potatoes or milk 

 or vegetables, he would still got them at the whole- 

 sale prices or the cost, as you suggest, would he nut - 

 He has been, of course. I believe in most cases 

 he does not pay more than wholesale prices for 

 anything he gets from the farmer. 



15.983. But supposing a man was paid his whole 

 wages in money and then hi- wanted milk or potatoes 

 from the farmer, he could go and buy them, could 

 he not? Yes, of course. 



15.984. Would not that be H much more satisfa. 

 relationship between the workman and his employer!' 

 I do not know; hut clearly in my view he is not 

 anxious to encourage that. 



15.985. You know that the Wages Board have 

 Limited the number of perquisites that are legal as 

 deductions from tho wages? \. 



15.986. Do you think that has been an advantage 

 or a disadvantage? Tho main items of food which 

 he draws from the farm are still allowed. 



I.V!'- 1 ?. Is it not a I act that ll -nK two 



things to bo allowed to be deducted from his wages, 

 namely, milk and potatoes? Yes; those are the main 

 items. 



15,988. In many other districts other things were 

 deducted from his wages?.- The only question which 

 is debarred which has affected the situation is the 

 question of drink- boor or cider. To my knowledge, 

 that is the only item of importance that has In -i n 

 debarred. 



_ 15,989. Of course, the practice varies very con- 

 siderably in different parts of the country? l" think 

 that is so. 



15.990. You answered one of the Commissioners 

 this morning to the effect that it was just as neces- 

 sary to have the tied cottage, or it was very i 

 sary to have it for the labourers. Would you rnind 

 telling me whnt you mean by the tied cottage, and 

 what yon mean hy what you say?- I am not sure I 

 mentioned the tied cottage; bm we all know what 

 it means in principle. What it really is. is that the 

 cottage is let with the farm also at an inclusive 

 rent. 



15.991. You do not mean anything outside of that? 

 No. 



15.992. For instance, in Oxfordshire and in other 

 parts of the country, farmers within recent- 

 have been buying up or renting all n 



the village, and therefore when a man conies to get 

 employment from any one of them he must live in 

 ono of these tied cottages? I have not any personal 

 experience or knowledge of that being done to any 

 it in Wales. 



15.993. You do not think that would be an advan- 

 tage, do you? It depends; but it is necessary fur 

 the farming operations on any farm of any si/ 

 have cottages which tho farmer can claim. 



15.994. Why? He cannot get his labour very well 

 done without. 



'-">. So long as the cottages were in tbe close 

 vicinity of the farm, would it make any ditTci- 

 whether they were own. d by the farmer or by tin- 

 Parish Council- It is in my view a .satisfaction t<> 

 the f armor and a convenience to him, to be aspired 

 of having cottages where he can put the labourers 

 in who do the work. 



''. Y\ hen a man has to live in his emplo, 

 cottage, he is under rather a larger obligation than 

 when be is in the- cottage with ,-omeh-dv eh*. Do 

 \"U agree with that- That might bo so! 



97. Then-fore, the man d<x K not foci the same 

 sense of frix-dom ; h.- is more t.jc-d : he is like tlt' 



e and liocomes tied, too? Of course he can 

 change the situation if he wi-ho> at any time. It 



not nocossarily hind him to remain 'there. 

 15,99S And if he changes his situation, he must 



his bom. (,)lllte. 



l\"!>0. Which is rather a disability, is it not? 

 Yes ; but it does not ofti n happen in my experience 

 now. I'sunlly the be*t man remains on. 



16,000. Yes; but evrn hetwion the best man and 

 the bct employer, there comes a time when they 

 want a change? Yes. 



