MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



85 



28 October, 1919.] 



MR. THOMAS WILLIAMS. 



[Continued. 



16,001. And it is rather a handicap to a man at 

 the same time ho changes the employment he must 

 also change his home-' 1 might say 1 am looking at 

 the matter more from the point of view of food 

 production. If I were not assured of cottages, I 

 should not risk the farm. I would not take the farm 

 at all. 



lti,002. Supposing in your district there were 

 plenty of cottages but not owned by you or your 

 fellow farmers, would that not be just as useful to 

 you? Of course, if cottages were very plentiful, it 

 would make a great difference; but the contrary 

 is the fact. 



1G,003. So that the thing really is you want plenty 

 of cottages, not necessarily tied cottages? That 

 would relieve the situation; but it is preferred to 

 have cottages let with the farm from the point 

 of view of tho satisfaction of the farmers, and 

 especially from the point of view of food production. 



16,004. You have not at the back of your mind, 

 have you, any idea that if you get men to live in the 

 farmer's cottages you can therefore hold them better? 

 You have a stronger hold over them than if they do 

 not live in the farmer's .cottage, have you not? I 

 have not personally found any difficulty "in regard to 

 that. 



16,00-3. You put security of tenure down as the 

 prime factor that is necessary to-day to assist agri- 

 culture. You think that stands easily in front of 

 any other remedy : that if you give the farmer 

 security of tenure, it will solve most of the difficult 

 problems of production ? Yes, I think it is a matter 

 of great importance. 



16,006. Are you in favour of a free market for 

 agricultural produce with no Government control or 

 supervision? No. I have just stated that I thought 

 for the present emergency it is advisable to have a 

 certain guarantee which will mean a certain measure 

 of control ; but the feeling is that we hope it will not 

 i>e necessary fo>- either to last long. 



lti,007. 1 was just going to ask you, have you any 

 idea in your own mind as to the term that that might 

 last? We might say five years. 



16,008. And then at the end of the five years, you 

 think that there should be a return to a state of 

 fn- . ilnin!- It is to be hoped so. We would at least 

 know that the position would be cleared up. 



16,000. You are not in favour, are you, of the 

 farmer being subsidised by the taxpayers of the 

 country? It would be a very regrettable state of 

 affairs. 



16.010. I take it that Welsh people are pretty much 

 like Scotch people and prefer to be independent:' 

 Yes, that is so. 



16.011. Mr. AMy: I should like to know what is 

 the attitude of the Welsh farmers towards the present 

 control of butter prices:' Butter and milk have been 

 a very serious problem with us. I happen to be 

 Chairman of our Local Food Committee, and have 

 had some experience. The feeling in regard to butter 

 in Wales ih that th"rc will soon be none, because 

 th(> prices arc absolutely silly. I believe the Govern- 

 ment specially discourages the production of home- 

 made butter, and they encourage milk and cheese at 

 the expense of butter. I do not quite know the 

 reason why. I think it is a mistake, really, for the 

 butter to go out; but as the collectors of milk come 

 round tho butter goes out. It has gone out very 

 rapidly during the last two or three years and in 

 another two or three years like this we shall expect 

 to see practically no home-made butter made on tho 

 farms. 



M.OI2. Do you regard the production of butter at 

 many of the outlying Welsh farms as an essential 

 part of the product? I think it is an advantage- 

 on a lot of outlying farms. They are not in touch 

 with tho sale of milk, and have difficulties in selling 

 it. For that reason, I think it is not quite fair 

 that the price of butter should be so bad. Those 

 small farmers have depended, to some extent, on 

 making n small 'ju.'ititity of butter, after rearing 

 their stock. What is left over from that they 

 make into hui<tor. ;irid lliero is a strong feeling 

 that they ought to have a more remunerative prico 

 for it. 



mra 



16.013. Admitting that there is no possibility of 

 selling milk at many of those outlying Welsh farms, 

 thinking of the alternative of butter and cheese, is 

 not butter making rather essential, in so far as two 

 of the main lines of produce are store stock and 

 butter? Yes, it rather goes together. Usually in 

 the breeding of store stock there is a certain amount 

 of milk, which is too small to take a distance away, 

 and, if a collector does not happen to 'come by, as 

 they are living in an out-of-the-way place, they have- 

 nothing to do with it but to make butter; but, as 

 I say, the sale of milk is gradually increasing in the 

 country, and as that increases so the butter will go 

 out, because of the bad price paid for it. 



16.014. Do you think there is any prospect of 

 collecting all the milk from outlying farms by any 

 system of transport ? Yes ; I think if it is thorotighly 

 organised it can be done, and that is an increasing 

 tendency. They are collecting milk now from near 

 the top of the hills by road. 



16.015. Would not the extension of that system of 

 selling milk on the part of the Welsh farmers rather 

 tend to alter the old farm dairying industry in other 

 parts of Wales and in some parts of England, in 

 so far as when Welsh farmers have stopped rearing 

 more heifers than they need, the other dairy farmers 

 who have depended upon them for a supply would 

 have to pursue the same system? Yes; it would to 

 some extent have that effect. 



16.016. Considering the fact that the Welsh farmers 

 have taken a great interest in the production of 

 butter and live stock, and are very unsatisfied at 

 tho present moment with the price of butter, what 

 action do you suppose they ought to take to get the 

 control removed? The Government have been peti- 

 tioned time and again, but they do not seem to pay 

 any heed to the Welsh farmer making a bit of butter. 



16.017. Supposing, with regard to a good many of 

 those outlying hill farms, the control of butter prices 

 was removed, would not it be far more important to 

 them than any system of guarantees? I am referring 

 to that particular typo of farm? The butter pro- 

 duction is only a side-show sort of thing ; in very 

 few cases is it the main source of revenue. 



16.018. What is the main source of revenue of the 

 outlying farms? The breeding of stock. 



16.019. How would they breed stock if they did not 

 have butter and have the skim milk for rearing 

 calves? They give them better than that; they give 

 them the new milk sometimes. Often the calves suck 

 Ihe cows, and sometimes two to a cow. 



16.020. Then taking your own statement, the price 

 of store stock is much more important to them than 

 the prico of any other product? Yes, I should say 

 so; But a great deal of Wales is given over to sheep 

 farming. That is so in all the mountains. 



16.021. I was thinking rather of the smaller 

 farmers who have no sheep runs? Yes. 



16.022. You have some interesting figures in para- 

 graph 2 of your evidence-in-chief. Who are the com- 

 petitors for farms who drive up prices to the extent 

 indicated in that paragraph? 



16.023. Chairman : He &aid it was the County 

 Council and other farmers? I mean more than that, 

 Mr. Chairman. I do not want it confined to farmers 

 and the County Council. There are others also. 



16.024. Mr. AsJiby. Who are the others ? There 

 are various classes of men who think there is nothing 

 like a farm and a bit of land ; it is a fine thing. 

 There are some men with a bit of money who like to 

 invest .it in a bit of land, who have had no experi- 

 ence in agriculture at all. It is not altogether con- 

 fined to farmers buying. 



16.025. Do I take you to mean that there is a pro- 

 cess of what you might call suburbanization of Welsh 

 land going on, as there is in somo counties of Eng- 

 land ; that is, comparatively small business men who 

 have a competency on which to retire, and they 

 want to buy some land to play with? Yes, that is so. 



16.026. In the last four lines of that paragraph, 

 you have one instance in which you say the rent 

 was 50 and the interest on the capital expended on 

 purchase would be 75. Do you wish to convey the 

 idea that the difference there ought to be passed on 

 either to the taxpayer or the consumer? No, not 



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