MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 



87 



28 October, 1919.] 



MR. THOMAS WILLIAMS. 



[Continued. 



the farmer lias sufficient money to buy his farm. I 

 know of some who have bought large farms without 

 any money at all at a big price. 



16.049. I agree with you : I could bring instances of 

 exactly the same thing. You said that the climate of 

 Wales is really not suitable for the growth of corn. 

 Do you believe that the land of Wales would be much 

 more efficiently used for other kinds of farming 

 rather than corn growing? Yes. I do not think 

 Wales is adaptable for corn growing, and not exten- 

 sively enough, except as far as oats and that sort of 

 thing are concerned for the stock. There are some 

 spots in Wales where it is all right; but, taking the 

 thing as a whole, it is not adaptable for extensive 

 corn growing. 



16.050. So that you think that if the Government 

 should now adopt a policy something similar to that 

 of the Executive Committees and compel farmers to 

 plough up a certain area of their land whether they 

 wish it or not, as far as Wales is concerned, it would 

 lead to disaster in farming? Yes; I think it would 

 be very regrettable to ask for any more land to be 

 ploughed up in Wales, and 1 do think that certain 

 of the land which has been ploughed up is unsuit- 

 able. Although I was one who made the Orders, I 

 thought then and think now most distinctly, that a 

 good proportion of the land had better go back to 

 grass even if the corn prices are kept up. 



16.051. You said 5 per quarter. I suppose you did 

 not mean for a moment that such a thing would be 

 guaranteed. You simply said that in your opinion 

 the land which you were on in Wales, could not be 

 cultivated under that figure under present condi- 

 tions ? Yes. 



16.052. Chairman: You said the poor land? Yes. 



16.053. Mr. Edwards : Referring to unproductive 

 forms of labour, is not it a fact that on these small 

 holdings, farms up to 100 acres, say, of necessity the 

 farmers live on their labour and not on their profit P 

 That is so; that has been the case. 



16.054. Our friends here who represent the hired 

 labour, make a great point of the fact that the 

 living wage must at all events be guaranteed to 

 them. Does it not follow that these small holders 

 require a guarantee of their living wage quite as 

 much as the labouring man? Yes. I have just 

 tried to urge it on one of your Commissioners when 

 he asked me the same question, that it was as much 

 due to the man who himself and his sons worked on 

 the farm, that he should get a living wage, as well 

 as the employee on the farm should get a living wage. 

 The whole thing is quite the same in my view, and 

 it should be the same from the labour point of view. 

 I do not see why any leader of labour can urge that 

 an employee on a small farm should bo assured of a 

 good wage, whereas the farmer who is really the 

 workman with his son should not get it equally as 

 well; and to provide that they should get it the con- 

 ditions of agriculture must be satisfactory. 



16.055. Just a further word about the guarantee. 

 Under the conditions of Wales with its climate and 

 its suitability for dairy farming and sheep farming 

 and the rearing of stock, do you think the mere 

 guarantee on wheat and oats, for instance, would be 

 a great encouragement of itself to farming in Wales? 

 No. To have a guarantee does not meet the case. 



because many of the high farmers do not grow much 

 at all and cannot grow corn for sale. What they 

 mainly want is to have a satisfactory price for the 

 stock; but the small amount of cultivation does help 

 to keep the head of stock, although the money is 

 principally made from the stock raised or from the 

 milk sold. It is mainly from the stock raised in 

 most parts of Wales. 



16.056. What is the tendency in Montgomeryshire, 

 the county you come from, as regards the land get- 

 ting back to grass? It is getting back rapidly. The 

 only difficulty has been getting the land clean. 

 Undoubtedly, I am afraid, it is a fact that a lot of 

 this land that is put down is not quite in the condi- 

 tion that it ought to be seeded down. The great 

 difficulty has been in securing a satisfactory supply 

 of good seed to lay this land back. Farmers are at 

 present paying, and have for this last year paid high 

 prices for seed to get it back in preference to keep- 

 ing it under the plough, mainly because they are 

 frightened of the labour conditions. 



16.057. Assuming that the Government should 

 guarantee a certain figure, or that this Commission 

 would recommend to the Government a certain figure, 

 and it was adopted as a minimum guarantee, would 

 that tend to assist this tendency to put the land down 

 to grass, do you think? You mean a guarantee? 



16.058. Yes, for wheat and oats? Yeg. I think 

 temporarily it might allay the feeling, but there will 

 be a good deal going back to grass in any case. No 

 guarantee will prevent a certain amount of it going 

 back to grans in my opinion, because I think it is 

 desirable in the national interests for a certain pro- 

 portion of unsuitable land to go back. 



16.059. You spoke about give and take as regards 

 the labourer and the farmer. I suppose you will 

 agree with mo that the cleavage between the working 

 man and the farmer is not so wide in Wales as it is 

 in some other parts of the country? No. I think 

 that is the case On a good many of the small farms 

 in Wales the farmer and his men sleep together some- 

 times. However, if they do not do that, they often 

 live at the same table and they work together, and, as 

 a rule, they get on very smoothly together. 



16.060. Anl it is, or was, the common practice if the 

 labourer wanted a holiday to go to a fair or to an 

 Eisteddfod or to meetings of that kind, which we have 

 very often in Wales, to ask the farmer for the day off 

 and to get it?- Yes. That is a point which I am glad 

 you have raised, because now with the shorter work- 

 ing days and the half-holiday the farmer rather feels 

 that the men should not have the usual amount of 

 days. But it has been the practice for a long time, 

 and I believe it is still kept up a good deal, that the 

 men should get these special days off during the year. 

 They do not like to forego those special days, and in 

 most cases I do not think there are any deductions 

 made when the men go in for a full day in addition to 

 the time they are entitled to.. That is, as a general 

 rule. 



lfi,061. In order to put the matter quite clearlv 

 before the Commission, you said that in your part it 

 is not the practice for the men to sleep out. I do not 

 suppose vou will dispute it if I tell you that that is 

 very generally the practice in the County of Anglesey, 

 where I come from ? That is so. 



The Chnirmnn : Thank you very much for your 

 evidence. 



(The Witness withdrew.) 



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