238 



NA TURE 



[yuly 7, 1887 



•cases large local contributions were being made, and those cases 

 should be taken into account. In conclusion, he urged upon the 

 <}overnment the consideration of a nationality that was some- 

 times apparently forgotten, and in the name of the 25 millions 

 of English population he asked that they should receive a re- 

 cognition in the matter of education proportionate to that given 

 to Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. 



Mr. Mundella pointed out that there were precedents for what 

 they were asking in the grants given in Scotland, Wales, and 

 elsewhere, and, in his opinion, Sir John Lubbock had rather 

 underrated the benefit which schools in Scotland derived from 

 the system. The high schools in Scotland were aided by grants 

 out of the rates, and all middle-class education was largely sup- 

 plemented by grants. In every country in Europe which really 

 rivalled England a first-class technical education was within the 

 reach of the humblest classes. In France very much the same 

 education as given in our coUeg^es could be obtained free and at 

 the expense of the State. There was at present no power to aid 

 the colleges in England, but he felt sure the Education Depart- 

 ment would have no difficulty in framing a scheme for the 

 purpose ; and he ventured to hope the Chancellor of the Ex- 

 chequer would assist them, and that grants should be allowed 

 to these institutions in proportion to the efficiency of each 

 college. 



Sir Lyon Playfair observed that as the Government was going 

 to introduce a Bill for giving to School Boards and other 

 authorities power of rating for higher and technical education, 

 he thought it would be well to extend the operation of the Bill 

 by giving power to the same bodies to rate for higher colleges. 

 The authorities were quite ready to be rated, and only wanted 

 the necessary powers. The experience of commercial nations 

 throughout the world was that the competition of industries was 

 a competition of intellect. The difference between the policy of 

 this and other countries was that while in other countries the 

 State recognized the fruits of education and acted upon their 

 perception of them, we left the first steps to the effiarts of in- 

 telligent men in various localities. These men had now done 

 their part, and, in consequence of the action of the English 

 Government in the past, he thought it was the duty of the 

 Government to come to the rescue of this small and highly in- 

 telligent body of men who had got up these colleges, and give 

 to them that permanence which they were not likely to have 

 without some small support from the public funds. 



Sir Bernhard Samuelson said that in the course of the investi- 

 gations of the Technical Education Commission he had the 

 opportunity of visiting nearly all the colleges now appealing for 

 aid, and, as far as his judgment enabled him to form an opinion, 

 he must say that, considering the means at their disposal, these 

 colleges were doing a thoroughly good work, and a work which 

 deserved the encouragement of the community. 



Mr. Thomas Burt, M.P., was not quite clear that this was the 

 best way of spending money educationally, but he was quite sure 

 it was a very good one. He could testify to the value conferred 

 upon the miners and the industrial classes generally of the North 

 by the College of Science in Newcastle. That institution had 

 been greatly crippled in its resoui'ces. There was among the 

 miners a widespread desire for improved education, and the 

 College of Science and the University Extension lectures had 

 not only given positive instruction of a valuable kind, but had 

 conferred still greater advantages by creating and stimulating a 

 desire on the part of the industrial classes for improved educa- 

 tion. If the Government could see their way to help this and 

 kindred institutions, a very great benefit would be conferred on 

 the industrial classes of the country. 



After a few words from Prof. Tilden (who differed from 

 other speakers as to charging local rates), Dr. Perceval, and Sir 

 George Young, 



Mr. Goschen, in reply, said : — When Mr. Tilden sat down 

 just now I was thinking on the whole that it was rather advisable 

 for the deputation that the list of speakers was very nearly ex- 

 hausted, because the differences of opinion began to be manifest. 

 Mr. Tilden objected to powers being given to corporations or 

 boroughs to rate themselves, whereas one of the objects of the 

 deputation, or, at all events, one of the suggestions made to me 

 during the course of this deputation, was that we should be sure 

 to give powers to localities to rate themselves for these purposes. 

 I do n >t know what the view would be of the deputation upon 

 the subject, but I suspect that the bulk of the deputation is in 

 favour of pawer being given, which of course would be optional, 

 for large towns to rate themselves for this purpose. Mr. Tilden 



argued that it would be unfair that a college which drew studei 

 from other quarters should be supported by local rates ; bu' 

 am inclined to think that that is a dangerous argument to \v 

 because you might find whole masses of the population — t 

 agricultural population, for instance, which would derive co: 

 paralively little advantage from these colleges — who might s 

 that they would not wish to be taxed towards national fun 

 which were to be applied to the big towns for the support 

 their colleges. So that I think it is rather a dangerous ar^ 

 ment, and I further think the towns derive a very considerat 

 advantage from having these large institutions, and that th 

 ought not to look too narrowly to the area over which th- 

 rates would be charged. Then, Mr. Burt, I think, made 

 remark which to my ears was rather significant — that thou 

 this was a good way of spending money, he was not sure tl 

 this was the best way of spending money upon edncatic 

 The interpretation I put upon that remark was that probal 

 a further demand would be made upon the national pu: 

 for educational assistance in other directions which, in JV 

 Burt's opinion, would be the best. No one is more awa 

 gentlemen, than you, who have studied this subject so deep 

 that there are many directions in which, and many points of vii 

 from which, this educational question has to be considered, 

 am glad to have received this most important deputation, 

 might almost call it in some respects a formidable deputatio 

 but I know that this is not the only direction in which presst 

 would be put upon the Treasury with regard to education. Y 

 represent here what I understand to be the higher forms 

 technical, scientific, and I think you may also say of literary 

 struction. There is the elementary education, and the expei 

 attendant upon that ; then there is the Science and Art Depa 

 ment, which in some respects is apart from the element: 

 education ; and there remains a field for which I am sure pr 

 sure will be put upon the Treasury, which is that techni 

 education which lies between the elementary education and tl 

 higher form of education which I understand these colleges gi' 

 I make these remarks to show that it would be impossib 

 I think, for the Government — though, of course, upon that 

 would be rather for the Education Department than 

 the Chancellor of the Exchequer to speak — to look upon t 

 matter simply from a partial point of view. We must revi 

 the whole of the demands which are likely to be made upon I 

 Government for educational purposes. It is certain that I 

 comparative test which has been applied by this deputation i; 

 very dangerous one to the finances of the State. The grant 

 certain colleges is certain to lead to a grant to other coIleg( 

 and if some of the gentlemen present had heard how the Sco 

 gentlemen argued that their case was'practically peculiar, and t: 

 the assistance given to the Scotch Universities could not 

 possibly made applicable to the English colleges, they woi 

 see the scope of the remarks which I have made. I 

 far from saying that, while there is this serious pressure lik 

 to be put upon the Government, this is not a question wh 

 must be carefully and deliberately faced, and looked upon 

 all its bearings. You have come to me to-day, I presume, 

 order to remove what we may call any financial scruples w 

 regard to your proposals ; but, of course, it would mainly i 

 with the Education Department to work out any system if th 

 colleges are to be granted assistance upon the scale which 3 

 suggest, and so you will not expect me to give you any decla 

 tion of policy to-day. But I presume that you are anxious t 

 the arguments you have used should sink into my mind, in or 

 to remove any opposition I might make financially to propos 

 that would be made by other depa'tments and through otl 

 channels. Now, from the financial point of view, I gather t 

 you assent to certain propositions, and the main of those prop( 

 tions is that assistance should only be given by the State wh 

 there has been a distinct local effort in support. I admit t 

 we cannot argue any more that the State should not aid educat 

 up to a certain line. That line seems to be by public opin 

 raised every day, and while formerly it was only the very pc 

 now it is a higher class ; and so from class to class it appear; 

 me the demand for State education is rising very rapidly, \ 

 haps I might say very formidably. But I am glad to take n 

 of the fact that, anxious as you are, representing as you 

 immense educational efforts in various parts of the country, ; 

 do not wish in any way to stop that magnificent flow of pri\ 

 contributions towards education which has been the gl 

 of this country in many ways. It would be deplorable 

 by the action of the State you were to arrest that actii 



