DOCUMENTS BEARING ON TREATY OF 1783. 131 



It is now apparent, at least to Mr. Jay and myself, that in order to 

 obtain the western lands, the navigation of the Mississippi, and the 

 fisheries, or any of them, we must act with firmness and independence, 

 as well as prudence and delicacy. With these there is little doubt 

 we mav obtain them all. 



No. 87. 1782. October: Conferences of M, de Rayneval with Lord 

 Shelburne (Extracts}, as given in Revolutionary Diplojnatic Cor- 

 respondence^ Vol. V. at page 821. 



OCTOBER, 1782. 



After those digressions, Lord Shelburne returned to our text. He 

 is alarmed by the cession of Gibraltar. He does not see how they will 

 dare to propose it to the nation. To cede Gibraltar, to liberate Dun- 

 kirk, to permit France to fortify Chandernagar, ai^d to have a mili- 

 tary establishment near New Foundland, to abandon Senegal, etc., all 

 that, he says, presents a picture very alarming to an English minister. 

 If the uti possidetis is proposed, I will not propose it. I will do all 

 that is in my power to promote peace ; but I can promise nothing, nor 

 even give any hope, on the article of Gibraltar. . . 



Lord Shelburne, having begged me to call on him at half-past seven 

 in the morning, I was there punctually. He told me that he desired 

 to speak with me before going to the council ; that since he had seen 

 me he had received letters from the king that obliged him to ask me 

 for some fresh explanations. 



The interests of Spain have been strongly agitated. Lord Shel- 

 burne dwelt anxiously on Gibraltar; he tried to prove to me, with 

 warmth, that the cession of it was' impossible ; he spoke of the re- 

 sistance that that article would meet with in the council; that Lord 

 Keppel had told him frankly, when he had mentioned it, that if they 

 spoke of ceding Gibraltar he would take his hat and leave. 



I answered that the first lord of the admiralty had only viewed it 

 as a sailor; that a statesman ought to consider the object in question 

 from another point of view; that, moreover, I could but respect the 

 importance that the king of Spain attached to the possession of 

 Gibraltar. 



We then returned to the article of Holland. Lord Shelburne 

 showed me the list of all that had been taken from that republic. He 

 then repeated to me that Fort Trincomale (on the coast of Ceylon) 

 suited England, and that her intention was to keep it. 



Then came at last the turn of America. Lord Shelburne 

 80 foresaw that he would have much trouble with America, as 

 much in respect to the boundaries as to the fisheries of Xew 

 Foundland, but he hopes that his Christian majesty will not sustain 

 them in this claim. I answered that I did not doubt but that he 

 would do everything in his power to restrain the Americans within 

 the bounds of justice and reason, and Lord Shelburne having desired 

 to know what I thought of their pretensions, I answered that I was 

 ignorant of those that concerned the fisheries, but that, such as they 

 might be, it seemed 'to me there was a sure principle to follow in that 



