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horns I A. I think dehorned animals will bring more on the market, from being likely to be 

 free from bruises. 



Q. Will animals without horns take up less space in a car ? A. I don't think it makes much 

 difference that way, but I have seen lots of cases where an animal gets down in the car, and in 

 trying to rise will run its horns into the others. Then they often break their horns in the rails 

 of the car. I would like to say that shortly after Mr. York was summoned I went and looked 

 at his cattle and they seemed to me to be all right. 



Richard Tooley, M. P. P., North Dorchester, Middlesex county, sworn : 



Mr. Drlry. — In addition to being a representative in the Local Legislature, you are 

 engaged in farming, Mr. Tooley I A. Yes, 1 farm on a small scale. I used to be ext nsively 

 engaged in the cattle trade. 1 have shipped 1,000 to 2,000 head per year, running through some 

 twenty-five years, and all the way from Chicago to New York. 



Q, You personally supervised the shipment of cattle \ A. Yes, my chief business was in 

 local buying. 



Q. What is the usual conduct of strange cattle when they are brought together ? A. They 

 are liable to be cross and ugly with each other. There is a disposition among them to fight for 

 supremacy, and as a result of that there is considerable damage. Then on the cars there is the 

 damage from hooking, tramping and broken horns. 



Q. Would there be a loss in selling at Toronto market through hooking ? A. Yes, if there 

 was one badly damaged there would be a reduction in the price paid for the animal. Even after 

 the sale of a load of cattle to a butcher, you are still responsible +'or any that may have been 

 bruised I have had to throw off five or six dollars in many cases, through bruises being dis- 

 covered after the load was sold. I would say that about one in forty would be damaged. You 

 very seldom see a load where one is not hurt. We had a case near here where two out of a car- 

 load were killed, and one a loss to the extent of fifteen dollars I can't say that this was 

 altogether from horns as there should have been a man there to take care of them. 



Q. Would you be in favor of taking the horns off if satisfied that it did not involve a con- 

 siderable degree of "suffering ? A. I think if it could be shown to the public at large that a 

 greater amount of good can be accomplished by the practice, and that the suffering is not great, 

 it would be a good thing. 



Q. Are you pe'sonally satisfied that the good is in proportion to the pain inflicted ? A. I 

 am quite satisfied that the pain is very little. I have seen four dehorned, and if I had a herd 

 of dairy cows I would be most decidedly in favor of dehorning them. 



Q. Would you say that'the practice ought to be limited to men having a practical know- 

 ledge of the operation \ A. Well, I think that a man who is a good all-round hand, and is 

 a sensible man, will do it well. I think, of course, it should be done in a proper way. If it 

 could be clearly shown that a man was guilty of wilful negligence, and if damage or loss, or 

 extreme cruelty were shown, then the man ought to be held responsible for it. 



Q. Do you think there is a possibility of fraud as to age without the horns 1 A. I do not 

 think that a man with any experience would be deceived. Of course some might be, but such 

 men would not be able to tell whether they were buying a cow or a steer. 



Q. You believe that if there was much suffering in dehorning, there would be some indi- 

 cations of it I A. Yes, I never had an animal that was in pain that would not show it. 1 

 went to see the operation, as much prejudiced against it as any man in Ontario could be. I 

 considered that it was wrong beyond dispute, but when I knew it was favored by Mr. York, 

 whom I have known for thirty-six years, and who is one of the kindest men I have ever known, 

 1 became convinced that it could not be a wrong or a cruel thing. 



< v ». Is this practice followed by men of good standing in the community ? \ Yes, I can speak 

 of th-ir character in the most positive terms. There is only one thing wrong with them, and 

 that is that they are mostly on the wrong side of politics. They are men of probity and honor, 

 both here and at Brownsville. 



Mr. Gibson. — Have you ever known a man who performed the operation and was after- 

 wards dissatisfied with it ( A. No, they are everyone highly pleased, and say that if they hadn't 

 it done, they would have it done at the earliest possible moment. 



James Charles Dance, farmer, South Dorchester, Elgin county, sworn : 



Mr. Drury. — You were at one time the representative of East Elgin in the Local Legisla- 

 ture ? Yes. 



Q. Are you engaged in dairying, at present:* A. I have been dealing in stock to some 

 extent. Have been dairying of late years, and had over thirty cows last year. 



Q. Do you agree with Mr. York and other gentlemen, as to the inconvenience experienced 

 in handling cattle with horns, and as to the profitable advantages of dehorning / A. Yes. 



