107 



It was then decided to adjourn until Tuesday, June 14th, at 2.30 p. m., when the meeting 

 will be resumed in the Rossin House, Toronto. 



The following witnesses were requested to appear before the Commission at London, to give 

 evidence, but they failed to attend : 



Jonathon Dagroat, Avon. 

 David Longfield, Crompton. 

 Joseph Morris, Crompton. 

 Charles Choate, Putman. 

 John Johnson, Avon. 



William Joliffe, Avon. 

 Alex. Crawford, Avon. 

 William Stirton, Brownsville. 

 Murray Smith, Avon. 



Toronto, June 14th. 



The Commission held a four-days session at Toronto, from June 14-17, and received the 

 following evidence : 



Dr. Bertram Spencer, sworn, said : I am a graduate of the University of Toronto, and 

 a member of the College of Surgeons, England. I have been practising in Toronto for the 

 past twelve years ; am a member of the active staff of the Toronto General Hospital, and a 

 lecturer at Trinity Medical College. I am aware of the objectB for which this Commission was 

 appointed. I have studied the anatomy of the horn, and I have had considerable experience 

 also in operations upon human subjects. " _ 



Mr. Drury.— What are your general impressions as to dehorning? A. Without having 

 seen the operation, and without being a sentimentalist at all, my opinion is that it would be an 

 exceedingly painful operation to the animal. I believe that animals have not as highly developed 

 nervous organizations as we have, but I know from what I have seen of cattle that if you strike 

 them on the horn they flinch and draw back ; from that I infer that the horn is very sensitive, 

 and I know that the nerve supply of the horn is very plentiful, i have never seen the opera- 

 tion, but I have seen the horn knocked off, and there are unmistakable signs of pain then. 



Q. Would you expect an increase in the temperature if there is a great amount of pain 1 

 A. Not necessarily ; only where there is inflammation. 



Q. Would pain be indicated by the pulse 1 A. Yes, that would get weak and rapid. 



Q. Now, if you had witnessed the operation, each horn being taken off in about five and a half 

 seconds, and none of the usual indications of suffering, what would you say as to the duration of 

 pain ? A. It would be like pulling a tooth— a sharp pain during the operation, and afterwards 

 no great pain. I think the pain afterwards would be if inflammation set in. 



°Q. Might there be a discharge from the opening that would not be pus 1 A. Yes, 

 there might be a mucous discharge, the membrane secretes mucous, and this might be increased, 

 but that could be seen at once under the microscope. If there were no pus there would be no 

 inflammation. 



Q. Then you say that if the operation is done in about five and a half seconds, the pain 

 would be confined to that time? A. Yes, while the nerves were being severed, and if there 

 were no signs of inflammation afterwards. Where pus forms I would expect pain. 



Q. What would be the effect r f the atmosphere upon the open cavity ? A. In cold or very 

 hot weather, inflammation would be more likely than if it were done in the middle seasons. If 

 the opening were covered over to exclude the air that might be better also. 



Q. What is your opinion as to the rights of man over these domestic animals 1 A. I think 

 that when the Almighty gave us these animals, He meant us to inflict a certain amount of pain, 

 but I believe that any pain inflicted should be necessary pain, and done with as tender a hand 



as possible. . , 



Q. What would you say was necessary pain ? A. If you were going to benefit mankind, 

 such as by the castration of animals, then I think no one can say it is not a justifiable operation. 



Q. Do you agree that there must be a proportion between the amount of good and the 

 amount of pain inflicted 1 A. Yes, I think that is perfectly sound. 



Q. Now, if it were shown that the value of these animals would be increased, say $3. per 

 head, would that be a justification 1 A. I don't think so. If I had a herd of cattle I certainly 

 would not cut off the horns for the sake of making $300. 



Q. We have the evidence of the lessee of the cattle market. I think he said he had been 

 there ten years, and that from 75,000 to 100,000 cattle pass through there every year. He gave 

 as his opinion that not less than ten per cent, of these cattle were injured to a greater or less 

 extent by the horns, and also that in his opinion there was a larger amount of suffering involved 

 by reason of goring, than there would be pain if the animals were all dehorned. Suppose a large 

 amount of pain could be saved to the animal themselves, would that be a justification ? A. I 

 have not seen much damage done— one animal to the other. I can hardly credit the statem nt 

 that ten per cent, would be injured. Of course, if one animal killed another, I think it might 

 be dehorned. 



