June 13, iyu7 



American ^ac Journal] 



hive, and give every colony from 3 to 

 4 supers every season. Taken one sea- 

 son with another, in the state of Mis- 

 souri — Missouri is not a good State for 

 honey, because the clover crop is not 

 sure — I can get more honey out of 

 the lo-frame hive. 



Pres. York — You mean the lo-frame 

 Langstroth? 



Mr. Abbott— Yes. 



Mr. Horstmann — 1 here is no reason 

 why the bees should not have all the 

 room they want in an 8-frame hive. I 

 did not write this question, but I am 

 glad it has come up. I use a good many 

 8-frame hives. I can bring them out 

 of the repository in the spring and jusi 

 as soon as the colonies get strong 

 enough I can raise the frame up and 

 give them 16 frames to work in, and 

 I am sure that is all they need ; and 

 when the time of flow begins I can take 

 the hive-body off and put on supers just 

 as they need them. When one is pretty 

 nearly full I raise that up and put an- 

 other one under it; and when the top 

 one is full I put another one on the 

 top, and I keep the colonies working 

 with 3 supers. I do not see where you 

 can get anything that will beat the 8- 

 frame hive for comb honey. I am so 

 well pleased with the 8-frame that I am 

 going to use it altogether for both comb 

 and extracted honey. I can use 8- 

 frame bodies, put up 3 or 4 of them, 

 build them up as high as I see fit, and 

 give the queen all the room she wants 

 to lay. The hive-bodies will be just 

 as easily handled as the lo-frame. 



Dr. Miller — I would like to enquire 

 whether any of Mr. Horstmann's neigh- 

 bors like a large hive. 



Mr. Abbott— Mr. Horstmann does noi 

 believe in a lo-frame hive, but in a 16- 

 frame hive. He goes me a good deal 

 better. 



Mr. Horstmann — Speaking of my 

 neighbors, I honestly believe that there 

 is not a bee-keeper in this hall this ev- 

 ening that has better neighbors than 1 

 have. I have never had the least bit of 

 trouble with my neighbors. .Speaking 

 of the bees, I have the school teachers 

 bring classes over almost every yea.- to 

 see the bees — classes of children. I ■ 

 have a colony of my bees over in the 

 University now. There is no danger ot 

 any stings. I have them "educated." 



Mr. Moore— I am for the lo-frami- 

 hive, first, last and all the time, for 

 extracted honey or comb honey Th; 

 manipulation Mr. Horstmann 'is talk- 

 ing about is absolutely out of the ques- 

 tion for most bee-keepers, I take it ; it 

 is too much bother; and, just as Mr. 

 Abbott says, he is getting i6-frame hives 

 instead of 8. That is not the point at 

 all. Most bee-keepers, when they give 

 the bees 8 frames, think they will beat 

 the bees out of just 2 frames. When 

 you talk of bees you are not talking of 

 one year ; }'0U are talking of S years. 

 The great question is wintering the bees. 

 The question is, Does the queen have 

 plenty of room? A good, young queen 

 will fill 2 of those hives in favorable 

 circumstances. When you move them, 

 as Mr. Horstmann says, you upset their 

 arrangements. They know where they 

 want the brood, and where they want 

 the honey. You give them the 10- 



frame hive and the queen fills a large 

 portion of it with eggs, and they put 

 their honey in there, and they fill thai 

 as full as they dare to before you put 

 on the sections. It is a mighty poor 

 year when they don't have enough honey. 

 They come out in the spring with plenty 

 of honey, and they won't be economical 

 as they will with the 8-frame hive, and 

 they will be a going concern. It is not 

 one year alone, but it is a series of 

 years, for 5 years, that finally gets the 

 money; and I believe for the every- 

 day bee-keeper who can not do so much 

 manipulation, that the lo-frame hive is 

 the thing. 

 The Members — Hear ! 

 A Member — Did I understand Mr. 

 Moore to say that a good queen will 

 fill 2 of those bodies? 



Mr. Moore — Under favorable circum- 

 stances she will fill 3. It is only ^ 

 question of unlimited honey; that is all. 

 Dr. Bohrer — I get more honey from 

 lo-frame colonies than I do from the 8, 

 and I have tried both. One thing that 

 induced me to adopt 10 in preference 

 to 8 was that one of the first Langstroth 

 hives was 18 frames. A good queen 

 would populate all of them, and we 

 got our honey from sections. We did 

 not use extractors at that time. Now 

 I get more honey keeping the combs 

 cleaned up, and keeping the bees con- 

 stantly at work, from my lo-frame hive. 

 You can get more than from the 8- 

 frame. 



Dr. Miller — There is a point that has 

 not been touched upon, that is, con- 

 venience in handling. With some people 

 that makes a great deal of difference. 

 A strong man does not care whether 

 has has 8 or 10 frames, though even to 

 a strong man it is a matter of con- 

 venience to have the 8 frames. As to 

 the care of them, I am sure there is a 

 good point there. Mr. Abbott is right 

 in saying that the farmer is better off 

 with the lo-frame. That is not saying 

 anything detrimental to farmers, but 

 when we speak of farmers as bee-keep- 

 ers we speak of them as those who do 

 not make a speciality of it, and do not 

 expect to spend a great deal of the time 

 at it. I am sure that the average farmer 

 is very much safer with the lo-frame 

 hive than he is with the 8-franie ; and 

 yet, with sufficient care and attention, 

 I am a little afraid that more comb 

 honey can be obtained through the 8- 

 frame hive than through the 10. For 

 years I used the 10, and, I hardly know 

 why, I think there was a fashion for the 

 8-frame, and I changed over to 8-frame 

 hives. I have the 8-frame hives yet, 

 but I do not know that I have got any 

 better crops since, but I am a little 

 afraid I have. I am afraid that it would 

 not be so safe for me to use lo-frame 

 hives, and yet there is a litle more 

 work required with the 8-frame hives. 

 I do not think Mr. Moore's objection 

 would hold, that using two stories in- 

 volves so much work that it is not easi- 

 ly done. Really, the amount of work 

 required using two stories during the 

 breeding season in the spring is not a 

 great deal, and if you will t.ike the 

 pains to have surplus combs you can 

 get along through the spring and 

 through the winter just as well with 

 the 8 as you can with the 10; but the 



man who does not give his bees par- 

 ticular attention will be pretty sure to 

 lose a whole lot more bees in the winter 

 in the smaller hives than he will in the 

 larger hives. But there may be a dif- 

 ference also as to locality. We laugh 

 about the matter of locality, and yet 

 that comes in near'y every place you 

 touch a bee-hive, and touch bee-work, 

 and it may make a difference in that. 

 But I rather suspect — I am not sure 

 about it — I rather suspect that if you 

 give the work to it, that you get more 

 honey with the 8 frames, and enough 

 more to more than pay you for the ex- 

 tra amount of work you give. 



Mr. Taylor — There is another point 

 I think ought to be considered in this, 

 especially by those who are treating a 

 good many bees. Of course it is a 

 question of interest as to how many bees 

 we ought to keep in one place. Now 

 suppose my location would profitably 

 sustain 100 colonies in lo-frame hives. 

 According to the idea of Dr. Miller, 

 if I kept 100 colonies in 8-frame hives 

 in that location I would get as much, or 

 more — probably more — honey from the 

 8-frame 100 colonies than from the 10- 

 frame ones. It is claimed — and with 

 some truth, no doubt — that the colonies 

 in the lo-frame hives, will average con- 

 siderably more brood than those in the 

 8-frame hives. Supposing that they 

 have one-fifth more brood, that is, brood 

 in proportion to the number of frames 

 in the hive. Well, if that is so, then 

 if the location will sustain 100 colonies 

 in lo-frame hives, it will sustain 120 

 colonies in 8-frame hives. That is 

 self-evident. Now there is a greater 

 advantage. Dr. Miller, if his ideas are 

 sound, would get at least one-fifth more 

 honey ; instead of 8000 pounds he 

 would get 10,000 pounds, and probably 

 considerably more. That is a point that 

 we ought to have in mind. There is not 

 so much advantage in having a great 

 quantity of bees in large hives if we 

 can get the honey from a few more hives 

 that are smaller and more easily handl- 

 ed, even if we have to have more 

 queens. Queen-bees do not cost much 

 to a bee-keeper. 



Mr. Moore — Dr. Miller would grant 

 you that if you winter your bees in the 

 cellar the question of how much honey 

 there is in the brood-chamber is not 

 so material. I take it that a very large 

 number of people who keep bees in 

 an ordinary rough way winter them out- 

 of-doors; but I would like to ask if 

 there is any one here who has had large 

 experience in producing comb honey in 

 i6-frame hives? 



Dr. Miller — I am one. What is it 

 you want to know? 



Mr. Moore — We want to know 

 whether you have made such experi- 

 ments as you can say that you can not 

 produce more honey in 100 lo-frame 

 hives than you can in 100 8-frame hives, 

 other things being equal. 



Mr. Taylor — In 5 years. 



Dr. Miller — In answering this whole 

 question, there is one point brought up 

 by Mr. Taylor that I am afraid will 

 not hold. He is taking the ground that 

 a lo-frame hive will have more bees in 

 it than an 8-frame hive. Not neces- 

 sarily. Because when we are talking 

 about 8-frame hives we are talking of 



