220 



THE CIVIL ENGINEER AND ARCHITECT'S JOURNAL. 



[June, 



is then questioned as to the extent of ground gained from the time the 

 original plan was selected, and having stated that it was from 5^ to 7^ 

 acres (as we have already mentioned,) he informed the Committee 

 that any departures vthich had taken place from the original sealed 

 instriictions, were done upon the authority of Committees of both 

 Houses of Parliament. 



The following was then read — 



Mk. Barry's Statement. 

 " My Lords, — At my last interview with the committee, I admitted that 

 alterations had been made without authority ; hut, I must beg of your lord- 

 ships to bear in mind, that that admission extends merely to the mode in 

 which they have been effected, as they have generally been the consequence 

 of express orders received from government. Your lordships must, I am 

 sure, be convinced upon reflection that the original design, recommended for 

 adoption by the commissioners, for a building of such extraordinary magni- 

 tude and complication of detail, as the New Palace at Westminster, could in 

 the first instance (for want of all the practical information requisite, and the 

 time necessary to devote to the study of it,) consist only of leading principles ; 

 and although the design, after the commissioners had made their report upon 

 it, and the committee had ceased to exist, underwent a very considerable 

 modification and enlargement, in consequence of the suggestions of the com- 

 mittee of both houses, before whom it was laid, yet the time allowed to me 

 for effecting the change, was far from sufficient to enable me to improve it 

 so much in detail as I have now been enabled to do from the continued and 

 deep study which I have ever since devoted to it, aided by the information 

 which I have been able from time to time to collect from the heads of de- 

 partments, and other officers connected with the practical working of the 

 houses of parliament. 'Ihe modified design which was ultimately adopted by 

 parliament, by the recommendation of a committee of both houses, was, 

 therefore, still in a crude state, as regards many of the internal arrangements ; 

 and as, upon being ordered to carry this design into effect, I was not in- 

 structed to adhere strictly to the details of it, I conceived that it was in- 

 tended by the committee that I was to be left at liberty to improve them as 

 much as was in my power, provided I did not depart from any of the lead- 

 ing principles and features of the design, diminish the accommodation and 

 convenience of the building, or cause any ultimate excess in tlie estimated 

 cost ; and in the correctness of this impression I have ever since been con- 

 firmed, inasmuch as that whenever I have been required by the government 

 to make any addition or alteration in the building, I have never been called 

 upon to dehver any plan to show in what manner 1 proposed to effect it. In 

 all the alterations which I have made in the internal arrangements of the 

 building, which have not been the consequence of express orders given to 

 me by government, I have strictly adhered to the conditions to which I have 

 adverted ; and in all those which have been expressly ordered by the govern- 

 ment I have invariably delivered estimates of the extra cost previously to re- 

 ceiving authority to execute them. With regard to the latter class of aUera- 

 tions, I beg to observe tliat in the first place I was required to make the ne- 

 cessary arrangements for the new system adopted by parhament forearming 

 and ventilating the entire building, which alone has caused many serious 

 and important changes : then to provide accommodation for the A division 

 of Police — then to provide a residence for the Librarian of the House of 

 Commons — afterwards to provide a residence for the Clerks of the House of 

 Commons — then to provide accommodation for the Clerk of the Crown — and 

 lastly, to make arrangements for the whole of the public records of the 

 kingdom, and their future increase ; together with the requisite accommoda- 

 tion for the establishment connected with them. All these orders alone, 

 have necessarily caused very important changes in the distribution of the 

 building, and many others have been the consequences. 



•' Your lordships can scarcely, I think, be aware of the enormous extent of 

 labour, responsibility, as well as anxiety of mind, which I have to endure in 

 conducting this great national work, which, when complete, if there should 

 be anything faulty, I shall be sure to he visited with the entire blame. I am 

 not, however, disposed to shrink from the almost appaUing task imposed 

 upon me, as I am firmly persuaded great undertakings are best accomplished 

 under an undivided responsihility. On the contrary, I am ready, as I have 

 hitherto ever been, to devote the best energies of ray mind to the perfection 

 of a work, which it is my earnest desire to render an honour to the country, 

 but unless I am supported, nay encouraged, in the performance of my task 

 by the cordial and kind indulgence of your lordships, and all who are in- 

 terested in the success of this the greatest undertaking of the kind of the 

 present or any former period, it is quite clear to my mind that it cannot be 

 brought to a satisfactory termination." 



The proposition here laid down, that " all great undertakings are 

 best accomplished under an undivided responsibility," is most incon- 

 trovertibU'. The observation might be used as au apothegm. Every 

 example of ancient and modern times will prove its truth. Would 

 Alexander have perfected his Indian conquests under a divided respon- 

 sibility? Would Hannibal have carved his course through the Alps 

 had he to send to Carthage for instructions how to proceed every 

 other tliousand paces ? Would Ccesar have conducted his army across 

 the Rhine, bv his simple but ingenious and effective bridge, had he 

 to wait for advices from the Roman Senate how to construct it? 

 Would llechelangiolo Buonarotti have built St. Peters, had he been 



obliged to go gossiping amongst the College of Cardinals about every 

 portion of his stupendous design ? Would Sir Christopher Wren 

 have reared so glorious a monument to his fame and genius, as St. 

 Pauls, had he allowed himself to be influenced by the worthy alder- 

 men of the good city of London ? (^But even here the interference of 

 petty minds prevented the original colossal design from being more 

 ihan half carried out.) Would Napoleon have achieved the brilliant 

 military and engineering results which marked his career, bad he to 

 send expresses to tlie French Directory for further orders in every 

 emergency ? Would Wellington have won Waterloo under the con- 

 straint of restricted authority from the War Office or the Horse 

 Guards? And we trust that posterity will add to the category of 

 queries, would (Sir) Charles Barry have covered seven acres and a 

 half of the north bank of the Thames at Westminster, with that 

 splendid and extensive, and complicated pile which adorns it, had he 

 been forced to go to my Lord This or my Lord That, for his opinion 

 as to how he might best manage its various details ? 



The first question Mr. Barry is asked after the foregoing statement 

 had been read, is a specimen worthy of even forensic ingenuity to 

 entrap a wituess into a self-condemnatory admission. We give it, as 

 well as a portion of the subsequent examination. 



Y"ou mention that you departed from the principle on which you set out. 

 Was not it a recommendation which you gave to the Commissioners, in your 

 statement to them of the prmciples of your plan, that the two houses of Par- 

 liament should be carried up much higher than any ot the surrounding build- 

 ings, for the sake of air and ventilation ? — I have not said that I haic departed 

 from the pruiciple upon tvhich I set out. Not having the original plans and the 

 memuranila I delivered, I air. not able with confidence to answer the latter 

 part of the question ; but I will refer to a paper which I hold in my hand, in 

 uhich is detailed the principles on which the original plan was formed, and 

 which, 1 imagine, will answer the question. The passage referring to the 

 houses is this : " That the situation of the bouses be in the centre of the mass 

 of the proposed building, for the sake of convenience, quietude, and freedom 

 from all disturbances from the exterior ; that all the lobbies and corridors 

 adjoining them be only one story high, to admit of the houses being well 

 lighted and ventilated, also for afibnling the means of making them ot the 

 forms and size best suited to the wants of each h^u^e, without interfering with 

 the imity of character maintained throughout the exterior." That is the 

 best answer 1 can give to your lordship's question. 



In the plan, as you are now execting it, that principle wiH not be main- 

 tained, because it is intended to have the Victoria Gallery of the same height 

 as the House of Lords ? — It is intended to be so ; but laterally the house 

 vt-ill be above its adjoining corridors. Perhaps I may be allowed to state why it 

 is '.hat the house is not perfectly insulated ; that is one of the changes which 

 has been brought about by the arrangements absolutely necessary for the 

 warming, ventilating, and carrying off the smoke of the building. 



Arc the Committee to understand you, that the Victoria Gallery has been 

 carried up to as great a height as the House of Lords itself merely for the 

 sake of ventilation ?— No ; not merely on that account. That is only one of 

 the reasons which has induced me to carry it up to that height. 



What is the other ?— The other reasons I will explain to your Lordships. 

 Exercising the discretion which I have alwaysdone, within the limits before 

 adverted to, as to the internal arrangements of this building, I w ill proceed 

 to point them out to your Lordships on the plan adopted by parliament. 



Is the plan you have just shewn precisely that now shown to you which 

 was approved by the Committee?— Yes, I apprehend it is, as it appears to 

 be a copy ; but, whether it is or is not accurate as a transcript of the plan 

 put before the Committee, 1 beg to say that this plan which I now pro- 

 duce is the identical plan approved by the Committee, and from which the 

 estimates of the building have been made. Referring to the plan sanctioned 

 by P.arliament. I will now state [to your Lordships the reasons which have 

 induced me to raise the Victoria Gallery, The objections to the state 

 entrance in Ihe plan adopted are as follow: loss of space in the principal 

 floor by Ihe heij;ht of the inner hall , loss of space in the passage to the re- 

 freshment rooms ; inconvenience of situation of refreshment rooms ; diffi- 

 culty of accommodating spectators to witness processions on Ihe staircase ; 

 necessity of lighting inner hall by lantern, rendered impossible by means of 

 ventilation arrangements ; impoisibility of duly lighting transverse corridor 

 at head of stairs, as well as the robing room at the back of the throne, in 

 consequence of the ventilating arrangements in the roof; want of a large hall 

 adjoining the house, as in all former houses, for the convenience of Peers on 

 great pubac occasions, the Commons being much better accommodated in 

 that respect Ihan the Peers. These appear to me to be the objections that 

 applied to this plan. 



Having been asked why h" had not communicated these arrange- 

 ments when he thought of them to some authority, be answers— 



I have already stated the reasons why I have not communicated the details 

 of .this and other changes to the government; but the plan exhibiting them 



