740 



THE iVMEHlCAN BEE JOURNAl^ 



Xovemher 24-, 



tions is too limited to be of value. But whatever changes we 

 do make, I hope we will not depart from the standard ■4.I4X414' 

 section — the cost will be too great for an imaginary gain. 



NOTE THESE FOUR POINTS : 



1. Foundation should touch the sides of the sections and 

 come to within one-sixth of an inch from the bottom-bar. 



2. I have used thousands of bottom starters, and fail to 

 find much beneBt from them ; but I have found this, that if 

 they overlap a quarter of an inch or so no harm v»ill result ; 

 the bees will cut them to fit, and unite them all right. 



3. If holes are found in the septum of foundation the bees 

 lose time, and add too much wax in mending. 



-t. Feeding back, on account of granulating in the sec- 

 tions, should be discouraged. S. T. Pettit. 



Mr. Spaulding — I disagree with one point in regard to 

 bottom starters. I find them a great benefit. I used to notice 

 that the bottom pieces of the sections would be pulled away 

 by adhering bur-combs, but since using the bottom starters 

 the bees fasten them so securely that I rarely if ever pull off 

 the bottom of the section iu removing the honey from the 

 hive. I use a starter about a half inch. 



Mr. Hatch — What kind of super do you use ? 



Mr. Spaulding — I have used the plain sections and the 

 super thai goes with them. 



Mr. Weslcott — I would like to hear whether there is any- 

 thing really gained by using full sheets of foundation, or 

 whether there is enough gained to pay the cost of buying the 

 foundation. I have tried both ways, and really the results 

 have been about as good with a good, fair starter as with full 

 sheets of foundation. 



Dr. Miller — It might be instructive to ask the question. 

 How many have tried both ways, and how many prefer only 

 small starters ? 



On a showing of hands, 21 were found to have tried both 

 plans, 17 of whom preferred full foundation, and 4 of whom 

 preferred starters only. 



Mr. Dinzenbaker — I would like to say a word in regard to 

 the matter of 4^4 inch sections. Here is a 4x5 section, and 

 here is one 4;4x4?4. I will stand them right up here together. 

 Let me say another word, as it was printed in the journals — 

 both in the American Bee Journal and Gleanings — that I use 

 bottom starters, I think I am entitled to say that I do not. 

 Some five years ago I bought some foundation that was In- 

 tended to be used in certain sections, and it wasn't deep 

 enough to reach as far as I wanted it to, and so I was forced 

 to use bottom starters to piece it out. I didn't like the plan. 

 In putting in foundation, I always leave a bae-space so the 

 bees can pass under. They fasten it at the bottom as soon as 

 they do at the sides. This little box of honey here, I will ven- 

 ture that I can put it in the express office and ship it to Wash- 

 ington, and that it will go all right. I shipt one from Wash- 

 ington to Gray Gables, to Mrs. Cleveland, and got a letter say- 

 ing that it went through in good order. Again, about the size 

 and shape of the sections. A pound of honey is just as heavy 

 in the 4x5 sections as in the other form, and when you come 

 to sell them, the 4x5 sections sell more readily. I can sell the 

 4x5 faster than I can the other. It makes a bigger show. 

 When I sell honey to consumers, I tell them to take their 

 choice, and one time I sold 48 of the 4x5 sections to two of 

 the others. The 4x5 sections don't hold any more honey, but 

 they look bigger ; 48 of the 4x5 weighed 47 pounds ; 100 of 

 this other size, with cleated separators, weigh from fo to 97 

 or 100 pounds, depending on the season. This year was the 

 driest I have ever known, and the comb was not filled out 

 quite so well. I cannot agree with the statement that it is so 

 expensive to change from the 4;! sections. There is no need 

 of the sections costing any more, and the supers can be 

 changed very easily, by nailing a % inch cleat on. The ex- 

 pense of changing is almost trifling ; the sections will cost no 

 more, and the cost of nailing the cleat on the super will not 

 exceed 5 cents to the super. 



A. I. Root — Mr. Acklin has some figures in his memo- 

 randum book that he could give us in repa'dto the relative 

 cost of producing comb and extracted honey. 



Mr. Acklin — At our out-apiaries 3 cents a pound was the 

 actual cost for extracted honey, and &% cents a pound for 

 comb honey. 



A. I. Root— That agrees with Mr. Hatch's 3 cents a pound 

 in Arizona. 



Mr. Hatch — He says he figured the actual costof extracted 

 honey at 3 cents a pound. I sold my crop at 33^ cents, and 

 cleared up $ 1, 100 for the services of myself and family for 

 the summer, excepting our board-bill. 



Dr. Mason — How much did the honey cost per pound ? 



Mr. Hatch — I could not say. We paid all hired help and 



all expenses, except our board-bill. I was an invalid, and did 

 not do anything for six weeks. Mr. Acklin gave 3 cents a 

 pound as the cost of production. If I could get 3 cents a 

 pound in Arizona, I could make money. 



Mr. Acklin^Don't you get larger crops in Arizona than 

 we do in the northern part of the United States ? 



Mr. Hatch— My average, with 550 colonies, was 120 

 pounds of extracted honey. 



Mr. Acklin — Do you keep those colonies in one apiary ? 



Mr. Hatch — No, sir; they are in three apiaries. 



Dr. Miller — Here is something that is of very great inter- 

 est to us, and that is as to the size and shape of the sections ; 

 and right here is the place where we can get information upon 

 the subject that perhaps we cannot get anywhere else, as to 

 the relative value of the two kinds of sections. I for one 

 would like to know if there is really any advantage. If the 

 4x5 sections are worth more, I must change, but I want to 

 be pretty sure of my ground. I don't want to pay out §50 or 

 so unless I am pretty sure there would be money coming 

 back to me for it. The question is, whether those who hive 

 had experience with both kinds of sections can tell us whether 

 the deep section is better than the square. 



Mr. Westcott — I think there is a good deal in being used 

 to them. A three-cornered section might look nice for awhile, 

 because it would be something new; but after I have lookt at 

 them for awhile I like the looks of the square section as well 

 as I do the other. I don't know why the honey won't sell just 

 as well, either. If we change from one to the other, It will 

 cost a great deal. The bee-men mostly have supers for square 

 sections, and when we make these changes they add a great 

 expense. 



Pres. York — We are not considering the appearance of 

 the honey that is now in these sections, but the shape 

 of the sections themselves. The honey is not of the 

 same grade in both sections. Will those who prefer the tall 

 sections please stand and be counted ? 



Ten declared themselves in favor of the tall sections, 

 while 15 declared in favor of the square sections. 



Mr. Hatch — I ran 250 colonies for Mr. Kendleson last 

 year. I like the Danzenbaker hive and section first rate, and 

 always have. Mr. Mendleson took some of the honey in these 

 sections and went into a store where they were paying 9 cents 

 for just the same honey in other sections, and he got 11}^ 

 cents for his. They had none of the tall sections, but they 

 could get plenty of the other for 9 cents. They have a fancy 

 trade at Los Angeles and Pasadena, where there are a great 

 many wealthy people who don't care for cost. If a thing 

 suits them they will take it and pay for it. To cater to that 

 trade it is certainly desirable to have that kind o( section. 



Dr. Miller — Suppose there had been on the market the 

 same number of square sections as of the tall ones, or suppose 

 the tall sections had been in the majority and the square ones 

 in the minority, would the same relative p^'ices have held good 

 then, do you think ? 



Mr. Hatch — Of course I could not answer that question, 

 because I don't know. There was no shortage of the square 

 sections ; there was an over-supply, if anything. 



Mr. Danzenbaker — I am sorry to see that the majority of 

 the convention are in error on this matter. The expense of 

 the change doesn't amount to anything. I have been in the 

 business for a good many years, and have tried a good many 

 changes ; I am always changing where there seems to be any- 

 thing to be gained by it. I met Capt. Hetherington, aud in 

 talking about the tall sections he said they sold better. I 

 wanted to buy a case of his honey, and he said it was all sold. 

 He produced 30 or 40 tons of honey, and it was all sold be- 

 fore it was produced. I said I wanted one case, at any rate, 

 but he said it was all contracted for, and at that time he got 

 17 cents — about 2 cents above the market. I begged of him 

 a half-dozen sections, and took them and put them on a hive, 

 and I was surprised to find that in the same super they were 

 the best filled and the best finlsht. Then I got a thousand, 

 and took them to market to find how they would go with the 

 people. I set the tall sections upright, and told my customers 

 to take their choice. I sold 48 of the tall sections while I sold 

 2 of the others. Then I put 2 cents more onto the price, and 

 that didn't stop it. Then I laid the tall sections down the 

 other way, and I was lost ! It depended on whether they were 

 standing up or lying down. I was in stores where honey was 

 sold in 2-pound sections, and they were the best finlsht I ever 

 saw. They were finlsht at the top and bottom alike. Only 

 an expert, who knew the pitch of the cells, could tell which 

 was the top and which was the bottom. Those sections were 

 selling at 15 cents, and the others were selling at 10 cents. I 

 askt, " Don't you lose money selling 2 pounds for 15 cents 

 when the other sells for 10 cents a pound?" He says, "I 

 can make more money producing honey at 2 pounds for 15 



