DISCUSSION 
them in our own generation I think there may be enough intel- 
ligent people to deal with the emergence of resistant bacteria 
and the like. I am very glad that it is going to keep us on our 
toes, but we shan’t be able to do it all by means of computers; 
we shall have to start thinking. Even if it means that a few 
million people will die prematurely every year, it is worth it in 
order to keep biologists on their toes, in my humble opinion. 
If Dr. Szent-Gyoérgyi would read the first act of Goethe’s 
Faust he would find something rather similar to his idea about 
the mistake of pulling things apart. Goethe expressed it with 
much greater precision than I can. I am in entire agreement 
with Szent-Gyodrgyi’s point of view because I am a crass 
materialist; that is to say I think that it is probable that I am 
kept together by the same sort of agency as keeps a hydrogen 
atom or a larger molecule together. My only objection is to 
calling the things forces. I don’t think they are anything like 
forces. The Indian samkhyd philosophy described them a good 
deal better, as what is called sattra, a principle of organization 
which is different from rajas (energy) or tamas (inertia). Until 
we start thinking in terms of quantal organization, rather than 
forces, I agree with Szent-Gyorgyi that we shan’t get very far. 
I have a paper in the press with some ludicrous ideas about all 
that! 
Lederberg: Some very interesting idealized abstractions have 
been brought up here which may play the same réle in our 
theory of biology or bio-social dynamics that comparable 
abstractions do in physics, where, for example, the frictionless 
machine is an important concept in thinking about energy 
and entropy. We have heard of such abstractions as a germ- 
free world, indefinite life-span, and the intelligent self-reproduc- 
ing machine. Each of these is quite possibly not attainable in 
its full form, but it doesn’t need to be so in order to be well 
worth thinking about. These abstractions pose problems that 
we have to deal with either in emulating life or in setting up 
appropriate social dynamics in the clearest possible form. There 
is no point in arguing whether we will fully understand 
the system. We may never fully understand any mechanical 
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