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lem that we have not yet solved effectively in working on all of our 

 urban problems, in working on all the problems that we have in the 

 partnership that should and does exist between the Federal, State, and 

 local levels. 



I think we have to do a great deal more in exploring ways and means 

 of setting up an effective management system that will enable us 

 to work together on the many, many problems that we have in this 

 urban society w^iich vre have and are still in the process of creating. 

 We have created a number of executive departments over the past 

 decade. The department with which I am associated is only two and 

 a half years old. 



Now we are talking about restructuring this one a little bit or 

 reshaping that one. I am not saymg that this might not be a good 

 idea. I realize many possibilities for restructuring the Federal Gov- 

 ernment that conceivably would work better. But I submit to you that 

 the structure we have has not yet had sufficient time, nor have we run 

 out of the experiments that we are trying to conduct. 



There has been an enormous amount of legislation in the environ- 

 mental bills put on the statute books in the last 2 or 3 years. We 

 have not had sufficient time to work out an effective relationship yet 

 vv-ith those laws. I would submit to you that perhaps we ought to try 

 to grapple wath this problem within the structure we have while trying 

 to progress on this basic problem of how do we manage this system 

 on a team basis, bringing all of the governments at varying levels 

 together. 



Dr. Ci-iAPMAN. I want to make one more comment that just ran 

 through my mind. I have in my pocket a little key ring that ^^as 

 given to me a week ago in Eome. It is to commemorate the seagoing 

 study tour on board an academic ship. This was a trip made for the 

 purpose of training oceanographers and biological oceanographers in 

 the developing countries. There were students on board from 12 devel- 

 oping countries. The voyage was made down through the central 

 Atlantic, and the coastal work was done off' the coast of Brazil. 



It was one of the nicest programs of coastal oceanography that I 

 have seen. Then it came up through the Caribbean, offloaded every- 

 body on the east coast of Mexico. As the students went off, they had 

 a report about 2 inches thick. It is not padded. It is a good, solid 

 report of the results from that trip that the students had participated 

 in, with charts, graphs, and data all worked up in Spanish. 



The reason for bringing this up is because this is one field that we 

 don't work well in. In the first place, w^e are laying up our research 

 vessels the same size as that vessel, whereas that one is one of a dozen 

 new ones being put to sea by the Eussians. We couldn't manage a trip 

 of that nature to get that international public relations effect. 



I am quite sure that there are so many problems involved in the 

 organization of Government we cannot do anything about it, but that 

 is one of the things that bothers me a little bit. 



Mr. DE Spain. In listening to the presentation today, I am reminded 

 of some things that Dr. Wenk said in his introductory remarks to 

 this series of meetings. When you enter a wilderness, as our ancestors 

 did, you are faced with very few basic things you need. You really only 

 need three or four things to survive. You need air that will sustain 

 you, the kind you can breath and survive on. That is very quick. Water 



