244 OCEANOGRAPHY 1961 PHASE 3 



Mr. DiNGELL. All right. Now, why does he not have control over 

 the bailment ? Apparently the Navy finds this situation satisfactory. 



Dr. KoBERTSON. If we were to retain title, I feel that we would have 

 to set up administrative controls to approve generally the cruises. We 

 would have to approve major alterations in the ship, which might be 

 undertaken for scientific reasons. 



Mr. DiNGELL. Does not the Navy have to do this ? 



Dr. Robertson". The Navy does this, and I imagine that it is ex- 

 pensive and to a certain extent time consuming, although I am sure 

 from my experience with the Navy that they do this with wisdom and 

 dispatch. 



Mr. DiNGELL. Now, why do you have to approve, let us say, a cruise 

 or a major alteration under a bailment, any more than you would have 

 to approve a major alteration or a cruise under a grant arrangement, 

 with these people ? 



Dr. Robertson. I think this is matter of administrative judgment. 



Mr. DiNGELL. I think it is a fairly simple question to answer. Is 

 there any reason why you have to approve a cruise of a ship under a 

 bailment program when you do not have to do it under a gift or dona- 

 tion program ? 



Dr. Robertson". Well, my own opinion is that if you own the ship, 

 essentially, and someone else is using it under bailment 



Mr. DiNGELL. As a matter of fact, you do not have to approve that 

 at all, do you, when you own the ship ? That can be a part of your 

 general contract with the recipient of the vessel, whether it be bail- 

 ment or grant. Is that right ? 



Dr. Robertson. I am not sure of the legal aspect there. 



Mr. Dingell. It would appear to me that you should be familiar 

 with this, and the National Science Foundation should know about 

 this very well before they start giving away $3 or $4 million of the 

 Government's money. 



Mr. Rtjttenberg. It would seem to me you could not alter Govern- 

 ment property without permission. 



Mr. Dingell. I do not think that is a valid point at all. 



Mr. Ruttenberg. He had mentioned that as one consideration. 



Mr. Dingell. I do not see any validity to it, and I would like to hear 

 him address himself to that point. 



Dr. Robertson. I think administratively, if we have title to the 

 ship, we should require a certain approval for major alterations. And 

 as far as I am concerned, I think that administratively there would be 

 considerable wisdom in knowing at all times where the ship that you 

 owned was going. 



Mr. Dingell. ^Vhy should you not do this if you made a bailment 

 of the ship ? Wliy does making a grant of a ship give you any greater 

 or less responsibility to the taxpayer to see that it is properly utilized ? 



Dr. Robertson. There you have the point of confidence in the 

 oceanographic institution. 



Mr. Dingell. I have fully as much confidence when I give them a 

 million- dollar ship as when I loan them a million- dollar ship, do I not ? 



Dr. Robertson. Yes. 



Mr. Dingell. Then why should you not superintend the one just as 

 closely as you do the other ? Is there any reason ? I am very critical 

 of your agency for giving title to these ships. 



