OCEANOGRAPHY 1961 — PHASE 3 245 



Dr. Robertson. I realize that,, sir. 



Mr. DiNGELL. And I think that you are breaching the taxpayers' 

 trust. I think that you are justifying the Congress in looking a 

 great deal more closely at your appropriations, and I think if you 

 persist in this, they will. 



Mr. Miller. Remember, Doctor, we are talking about $100 million 

 in a 10-year program. Some people are quite critical of this, and 

 the resistance that has come up when this committee suggested that 

 this not be done. 



Now if you grant to some school money to buy some microscopes, or 

 some very simple instruments, you do not try to follow through on 

 this and tell them what to do, do you? On the other hand, if you 

 make that grant, and somebody takes them out and says, "We don't 

 need these any more," and sells them or trades them off for something 

 else, I trust you would take a good look at it. 



Dr. Robertson. I would like to go back and look at this as part of 

 our over-all program for providing research facilities. 



Mr. Dingell. Now let us not talk about this as part of an overall 

 program for conducting research facilities. If you give away a cyclo- 

 tron or something like that, that cyclotron is sunk in bedrock. Am 

 I correct ? And they are not going to pick it up and move it around 

 the country ? 



Dr. Robertson. That is right in many cases, although several cyclo- 

 trons have actually been moved. 



Mr. Dingell. Now a vessel is a great deal different ; is it not ? 



Dr. Robertson. Yes. 



Mr. Dingell. And indeed a vessel can be used for tuna fishing or 

 light cargo hauling or God knows what, with certain appropriate 

 modifications. Is that not a fact ? 



Dr. Robertson. That is correct, but a considerable expenditure is 

 necessary for conversion. 



Mr. Dingell. Now let us assume that a cyclotron is fixed and sta- 

 tionary and that they are going to use that over a long, long period 

 of time for certain specific kinds of research. But a vessel is an alto- 

 gether different type of entity ; is it not ? It is capable of movement. 

 It is capable of sale. It is capable of widely divergent types of use. 



Now you told us that you feel that if you make a bailment of a ship, 

 you have got to supervise the utilization of that ship. 



Dr. Robertson. In a limited way. 



Mr. Dingell. Now if the public interest requires you, when you 

 make a loan of a ship, to supervise the utilization of the ship, why 

 does not the same thing exactly obtain in connection with a grant 

 of a ship ? I would like to have just one reason. 



Dr. Robertson. Of course, the reason we make the grant — — 



Mr. Dingell. Is to get away from supervision and responsibility for 

 the management of the entity. Is that correct ? And to escape your 

 responsibility to the taxpayer ? 



Dr. Robertson. No, sir. That is not correct. 



Mr. Dingell. All right. Then you tell me why you make a grant 

 instead of a bailment. 



Dr. Robertson. We believe that the scientists at these institutions 

 can progress better in science if they have the responsibility for super- 



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