OCEANOGRAPHY 1961 — PHASE 3 279 



No, it was Savit who made, I thought, a rather interesting jibe. 

 He said yesterday that when industry goes to sea, it goes for business 

 reasons, and implied that when oceanographers go to sea, they go on 

 a vacation. I have been to sea on the Atlantis in the early days, and I 

 can assure you it is no vacation, I can, as a trustee of Woods Hole, 

 issue a continuing invitation to Mr. Savit to come to sea with our 

 scientists. We will put him on the worst bucket we have got, and 

 some of them are pretty bad, and we wdll see if he has a vacation. The 

 scientists work, and work hard, at sea. 



One thing that is very important about this bill, and is to be 

 commended in general, is that the interest in biology and fisheries is 

 emphasized. In general, the Government agencies that have sup- 

 ported oceanography have neglected biology and fisheries. We, in 

 the basic sciences, feel that we need additional support on the biologi- 

 cal side of oceanography. It is not much use knowing about the phys- 

 ical environment in the sea, if we do not relate it to the things that 

 live in it. 



On standardization, I am afraid that Dr. Fye took the words out 

 of my mouth. I quite agree with him. I happen to have developed 

 an instrument that has been very widely used, called the bathythermo- 

 graph. It was developed in Dr. Ewing's terms in 1937, because we 

 wanted to do research on the Gulf Stream. The Navy used it for 

 other purposes very extensively later on, but it never would have been 

 developed if it had not been that we were interested in studying the 

 Gulf Stream. 



Had it been developed without regard to a research need, and had 

 we had to standardize it in the beginning, it probably would have 

 been stillborn. 



One of the fundamental difficulties with this bill is that it starts with 

 operations and hardware. Just as Admiral Stephan's chart shocked 

 me a little bit, because it, too, started with operations and hardware 

 and then research came down below. I believe that paragraph 6, 

 which relates to the coordination of research, is the real crux of this 

 hill, and that operations and hardware are just things that are neces- 

 sary after you have laid your research program, and should be minor 

 things. 



Mr. Chairman, I hope this bill passes, in spite of these criticisms 

 that we have made of it, and in spite of differences on some of the 

 points. I hope it passes and I hope the corresponding bill in the 

 Senate passes, because both have the same objective in mind, namely, 

 to help oceanography, which is necessary for our defense for many 

 other things that we need nationally. I think if they both pass, then 

 you can get together and iron out the differences, and I am sure that 

 it will be beneficial to the national program in oceanography. 



Thank you. 



Mr. Vanik. Doctor, we certainly appreciate your frank statement. 



Do you have any questions, Mr. Ellsworth ? 



Mr. Ellsworth. No, Mr. Chairman. 



I would like to say for the record that I read Admiral Stephan's 

 chart as flowing up, rather than starting from the top down. That is 

 the way I read it. I would certainly agree with your comment if it 

 read from the top down. 



