OCEANOGRAPHY 1961 — PHASE 3 289 



How can we coordinate that ? How can we get out of the interde- 

 partmental jealousy even in a fixed agency by statute? 



We refer to our armed services as being an integrated armed service 

 but that is fiction and not fact. We know tliat even thougli, by statute, 

 we told them to do it 14 years ago, that is not so. If we had it on a 

 purely voluntary basis such as this agency is now constituted, I do not 

 know to whom we could look. For instance, we ought to have a data 

 center, we believe, and there ouglit to be an exchange of information. 

 Testimony just this week has been that there are many organizations 

 which are interested, even colleges and universities which have depart- 

 ments of oceanography. They are making tests and doing research 

 but they do not say, in the information they gather, they can send it to 

 a central agency where it can be disseminated. 



You do not do that, I do not imagine? 



Dr. Carmichael. There is 



Mr. Lennon. There is no reason why joii should. You are au- 

 tonomous. You are within yourself. 



Dr. Carmicpiael. May I answer? 



Mr. Lennon. Yes, sir. 



Dr. Carmichael. I think we are just that in the biological sciences. 

 In fact, one thing that I had written to present in coming up here 

 was that we are a data center for the biological sciences in oceanog- 

 raphy and we have been so recognized for a great many years. It is 

 to us that the universities come. I have no doubt that if you went to 

 the Smithsonian today, not where the visitors are but in our great 

 study collections, I have no doubt you would find dozens of people 

 from other Government bureaus, from universities, from oceano- 

 graphic research centers, who are at work in oui" laboratories. There 

 really is no similar place for them and we, therefore, do fill that need. 



Let us take the question of fish. We are the place where all kinds 

 of fish, both salt and fresh water, are organized. There are other 

 collections of fish in other parts of the world, but I think I can say 

 that we have the greatest collection and data center. 



Information does come in to us in regard to such matters but this is 

 just one specialized part. It does not bear upon your very clear, and I 

 think, your very effectively stated point. There should be an overall 

 data center for other aspects of oceanography than the biological. If 

 a new data center were developed, we in the biological sciences, of 

 course, would cooperate with it. These collections occupy vast spaces 

 and the data is often not in the written word but is in a jar full 

 of alcohol or water which contains fish collected from a particular 

 place in the Pacific, for example. 



I agree with you on the importance 



Mr. Lennon. How close is your working relationship with the 

 marine and biological laboratories of the Department of Interior? 



Dr. Carmichael. Very close. 



Mr. Lennon. Research ? 



Dr. Carmichael. In research in the areas I mentioned, it is very 

 close. In fact, some of their people are in our building, necessarily.^ 

 A'irtually all of the time. 



Mr. Lennon. On the program accountability, you diffuse this varied 

 interest of the various departments and agencies. You know what 

 the Navy's primary interest is in oceanography ; you know what the 



