OCEANOGRAPHY 1961 — PHASE 3 333 



more oceano^raphic ships. The Navy, of course, had been supplying 

 converted ships for oceanograj^hic purposes. Navy types for this pur- 

 pose, and had not, at that time, obtained final approval for a desijjjn 

 for a new oceanographic ship. This came later in the form of the 

 AGOR. It was recognized generally that support for oceanography, 

 including support for provision of oceanographic ships, should be 

 diversified. ONR felt and made informal representations that the 

 total burden of supporting oceanography should be spread, and that 

 the NSF should enter in a strong way into the support of basic re- 

 search in oceanography, both supporting the ongoing research pro- 

 grams and attempting to provide some of the needed new ships. 



This was a mutual understanding that developed between the two 

 agencies. 



Mr. Bauer. Of course, you are familiar, are you not, with the dif- 

 ference in approach with respect to the National Science Foundation 

 and the Office of Naval Research whereby the Office of Naval Research 

 maintains title and contract for the use of the ship and the National 

 Science Foundation makes an outright grant or gift ? 



Dr. Robertson. That is correct. The Navy, of course, keeps title 

 to its ships. It is an agency that has a long experience with taking 

 care of ships. The National Science Foundation policy is to give title 

 to the facilities that it provides for research purposes to the nonprofit 

 institutions that receive its grants. 



Mr. Bauer. Let us suppose, looking into the future, that there are 

 more ships needed, which undoubtedly there are, which policy should 

 we pursue ? That of the National Science Foundation of giving title, 

 or that of the Office of Naval Research of retaining title? 



Dr. Robertson. My own feeling is that there is a lot of value in hav- 

 ing both policies. In other words, we need to build up the scientific 

 assets of our nonprofit research institutions. We can do this by mak- 

 ing grants for ships and other major facilities. 



At the same time, the Navy with its history of taking care of ships 

 and providing them, might well continue to give ships on loan, 



Mr. Bauer. If you were in the situation of a recipient, which would 

 you prefer from a point of view of the scientific merit of either having 

 a ship on a bailment, as the Navy does, or a ship given to you as the 

 National Science Foundation does? If you were the recipient which 

 would you prefer ? 



Dr. Robertson. If I were the director of an oceanographic institu- 

 tion, I would like to have a reasonable number of ships which belong 

 to the institution. I might also accept the care of certain Navy ships 

 because of the Navy's interest in the institution. To me an oceano- 

 graphic institution with nothing but shore facilities is unthinkable. 

 Such an institution needs to have both its shore laboratories and its 

 ships. 



Mr. Bauer. In your hearing before the House Appropriations 

 Committee in 1960, the justification of your budget proposal as I re- 

 member it, was that you were going to spend $3 million for ships ; is 

 that correct ? 



Dr. Robertson. $3 million was the amount of our original grant 

 to Woods Hole. 



Mr. Bauer. But, I mean in your budget justification, you were just 

 talking about ships. 



