OCEANOGRAPHY 1961 — PHASE 3 345 



Mr. RuTTENBERG. Without cost. 



Mr. Drewry. But, you could give them permission to dispose of 

 it in any way that they wanted to ? 



Mr. RuTTENBERG. We could give them permission ; yes, sir. 



Mr. Drewy. Having dealt quite a lot with contract matters con- 

 cerning Government participation in commercial ship transactions, 

 this seems to me to be a little bit on the way of being shockingly 

 loose from a legal standpoint. 



Mr. RuTTENBERG. It is loose depending on the frame of reference. 

 For example, we did not have to put any restrictions at all on it except 

 those which we felt would be appropriate. Under our authority, I 

 believe quite clearly we could give the ship away without any strings 

 at all, or give them the money. 



Mr. Drewry. There is no doubt about that in my mind. 



That is all, Mr. Chairman. 



Mr. Miller. I have only one question. 



Why could not the National Science Foundation build and retain 

 title to this ship, consulting Woods Hole for construction of the ship 

 and the type of ship that it wants, and facilities, and then contract 

 with Woods Hole to operate the ship and do the research necessary? 



Mr. RuTTENBERG. Well, legally, we could, of course. I think it is 

 a matter of judgment of our scientific people as to whether this is a 

 desirable approach from the point of view of Foundation policy, but 

 legally, of course, we could. 



Mr. Miller. What, Doctor, would be some of the immediate ob- 

 jections to this from a scientific point of view ? 



Dr. Robertson. From a scientific point of vieAv, it seems to me that 

 you have to go back to our basic objectives, which are to strengthen 

 the research program in the United States. It is the judgment of 

 the National Science Board and the Director, that an important way 

 to do this is by providing the research institutions, the universities 

 and nonprofit institutions such as Woods Hole, with the tools to do 

 the research that they want to do, and that the best and simplest way 

 of doing this is to give them these facilities. This enables them to 

 design their own ship, to take full responsibility for planning it 

 exactly as they need it, to introduce variations that apply to their 

 local circumstances. We feel that this method not only strengthens 

 the institutions which we are trying to strengthen, but also provides 

 them with the best and most efficient tools for their own use. 



Mr. Miller. Well, now, the Coast and Geodetic Survey recently 

 took delivery of a specially designed ship, and I do not think that 

 you want to charge that the work that the Coast and Geodetic Survey 

 is going to do with the ship is not going to be of the highest caliber. 



Dr. Robertson. Not at all. I feel that the Coast and Geodetic Sur- 

 vey is entirely competent. 



Mr. Miller. Mr. Ellsworth and I had the privilege recently of 

 visiting the San Pablo that was here in Washington on display; 

 she is pretty well equipped with all of the heavy equipment that is 

 needed for physical oceanographic work. We are not going to ques- 

 tion the value of the program that it is doing for the Hydrographic 

 Office, and the Government is going to operate these ships. 



Dr. Robertson. I am not questioning the abilitj^ of the Government 

 to operate its own ships. 



