SEA GRANT COLLEGES 221 



Senator Pell. To draw on your reasoning a little bit in this con- 

 nection, tlie thought hei-e is not just to confine it to the few States 

 or institutions that presently have programs. It is to make the pro- 

 gram or the concept available to any iState that develops an interest 

 in doing so. 



For instance, if the State of T^tah developed an interest in this 

 kind of program and developed a program to do it, it could become 

 a sea grant college, but I am sure you don't visualize the relatively 

 small amount of the money being divided on a specific population basis 

 or something of that sort among the States. 



Dr. RouNSEFELL. I think any State who wishes to have a sea grant 

 college should be able to have it by the wording of the bill. 



Senator Pell. But it is only, say, $15 or $10 million and you have 

 got 50 States. That would mean, let us say for the sake of argument, 

 of $15 million, 50 States, you would see that would amount to maybe 

 $300,000 a State. 



Dr. EouNSEFELL. Well, $300,000 on an estuarine program and to 

 develop education and extension in a State would be a very fine start. 

 I also feel that AVhen this program starts you will find a great many 

 other sources of local and State funds that vrill be funneled into the 

 sea grant university. Thus Ave will receive enough money to develop 

 a strong program. 



I had experience while running laboratories, in trying to hire per- 

 sonnel, and we do not have the trained personnel today because there 

 is not enough education in the marine sciences. 



Senator Pell. You believe, then, that it should be available to any 

 State that shows an interest and wants to develop such a program. 



Dr. RouNSEFELL. Yes, sir. 



Senator Pell. But it should not just be divided up, as we suggested 

 earlier, like appointments to Annapolis among the States. 



Dr. RouNSEFELL. Well, if a State doesn't want to go ahead with it, 

 then they shouldn't get their share, but if they want to go ahead, they 

 should be able to. 



Senator Pell. You don't believe there should be a degree of com- 

 petition between the States so that if the State of I^tah comes up with 

 a good program they could get it. If another State saw a need of just 

 getting some added money, wasn't really interested in it, but saw it 

 as a means of bolstering something they were already doing, they 

 sliould in my mind not get it. 



What would be your view ? 



Dr. RouNSEFELL. Well, if a State is not interested in it, it shouldn't 

 have it. 



Senator Pell. But if Federal money is available, no matter if it is 

 to teach Siamese or astrology, the States will probably go after it. 

 There has to be a degree of competition to winnow down the de- 

 gree of interest. 



Dr. RouNSEFELL. Well, I think that we have got to try to establish 

 these programs in as many States as possible if we are going to com- 

 pete in our fisheries. We are losing out in the race. We have failed 

 in the last 30 years to do anything for our fisheries in spite of all thi^ 

 money spent for oceanography and for fisheries. I think our fail- 

 ure stems from not having proper education at the grassroots level. 



Senator Pell. And your thought is, too, the money sliould bo equally 



