246 NATIONAL OCEANOGRAPHIC PROGRAM LEGISLATION 



learned very well, is from time to time, we ought to take a look at the 

 scientific community outside the Government, and be sure we haven't 

 missed a bet, that there isn't something new in the wind like nuclear 

 fission which can come up over the top and really modify what the 

 establishment thinks is a good idea. 



And we learned the lesson, I hope we have learned it forever, that 

 we shouldn't always depend on any existing bureaucracy or organiza- 

 tion to have all the wisdom in the world. We ought to bring in some 

 outsiders every now and then, to ask the question, "Are you doing a 

 good job, or should you change it?" 



And I think that technique is fundamental to the operation of the 

 Government, and we ought to do it from time to time, and that is 

 what — and I, as I say, understand it to be the reason for having the 

 special committee on oceanography. 



Mr. Eeinecke. Thank you. I appreciate your comments, and I 

 think you defend your position very well. 



No further questions, Mr. Chairman. 



Mr. Lennon. Mr. Downing? 



Mr. Downing. Mr. Secretary, although I disagree with your well- 

 expressed point of view, I think you have made a splendid statement 

 on its behalf. 



Dr. HoLLOMON. Thank you, sir. 



Mr. Downing. I think Mr, Reinecke has pretty well expressed the 

 concern of this committee. Most of us feel that there is an apathy on 

 the part of the Federal Government to implement this program, and 

 I think we can recall back to the time when the NASA proposal was 

 being debated in the Congress. We had this same sort of testimony. 

 There was reluctance on the part of the various agencies of Govern- 

 ment to join in this proposal for a unified NASA, and you must 

 remember that space was more complex and intangible then than 

 oceanography is now. 



But it was the wisdom of the Congress to go ahead with NASA and, 

 because of that, I think we have at least maintained a preeminence 

 in space. 



And I think the same thing holds true of oceanography. I think it 

 is time now to have our Government implement this new front, and I 

 think it is going to take a single agency to do it. I notice — well, take 

 the letter from your General Counsel to Chairman Bonner. It is a 

 letter which says more or less what you said, that we think we have 

 got enough now, but it concludes with: 



However, we recognize that it may become desirable in the future to have an 

 intensive general review of the national oceanographic activity, conducted by a 

 commission of highly qualified persons. If your committee now desire to recom- 

 mend legislation directed toward possible future review of oceanography, we 

 suggest it include the following amendments, * * * — and so forth. 



Dr. HoLLOMON. Yes, sir. 



Mr. Downing. No firm position. 



Dr. HoLLOMON. I thought that I had taken a firm position with 

 respect to the overall problem. Let me try to 



Mr. Downing. You did, but your General Counsel didn't. 



Dr. HoLLOMON. I think that such a commission should be discretion- 

 ary to the President to establish that commission, if he thinks it is a 

 proper thing to do at this stage of development. This is what our 

 General Counsel said. 



