366 NATIONAL OCEANOGRAPHIC PROGRAM LEGISLATION 



such as NASA did, because we have technical knowleda'e, we have 

 trained personnel and trained people, both in industry and in Govern- 

 ment, which you did not have. But I think structurally we have to 

 have something like NASA if we are going to focus the attention and 

 the effort that should be focused and the effort that should be made 

 in oceanography. 



As vou are talking about the budget, we are trying to get their budg- 

 et Dulled out so it would have SDecific attention. We tried that once 

 before. In fact we passed a bill and it was socket-vetoed. 



Do you think now the bills that we have before us that we make a 

 study, or should we try to set up a separate agency or separate head 

 who has nothing: but this, or do vou think we ought to just try to im- 

 prove on the system that we have ? 



Mr. Clotworthy. No; I think something new is needed. As you 

 have obsert^ed just now, even with a body of people eminently quali- 

 fied to study the problem, it still turns out that it is a part-time lob. 



I think that is the sickness that the program had from its inception. 

 With the exception of the small staff, Mr. Abel has in the TCO, there 

 is no body of people working on a full-time basis on a national ocean 

 program. It is part time for everybody and I think it is this factor 

 more than anything else that dictates an agency or a council -tv^e of 

 approach — a body with executive ability working full time to establish 

 goals and implement their achievement. 



Mr. O.^SEY. I do not think anvone on this committee criticizes the 

 ability of the people that are in the various agencie'^, the Interagency 

 Committee on Oceanography, or on the science and technology staff, 

 or a member of the Council, but we are critical of the mechanics of it. 

 We are criHcal of the amount of time that they are permitted to devote 

 to it, and T dare say if we could take these men that have appeared 

 before us from the various agencies on oceanography and take tliem 

 off everythino; else and put them on just oceanogi'aphy, we would have 

 a program we could really be proud of. 



Mr. Clotworthy. Indeed you would. 



Mr. Casey. Then, specifically, you are not recommending any par- 

 ticular bill, as I take it, that is before this committee, but you are here 

 in supnort of us doing somethino* to bring it together and to arive it 

 be+ter direction. Is that correct ? Does that summarize your position ? 



Mr. Clotworthy. Yes, sir. 



Mr. Casey. Thank a^ou. 



Mr. IvENNON. Mr. Reinecke ? 



Mr. Reinecke. How many people are involved in the division in 

 yonr company with respect to undersea investigation ? 



Mr. Ctot^vorttty. Something in exce^^s of a tliousand. There are 

 several divisions of the company which have a major role in undersea 

 eff-^rts. 



The division I head in Baltimore, the Underseas Division, is in- 

 volved in undersea weaponry, sonar, oceanographic insi^ruments, and 

 small manned submersibles of the res'^arch variety. There is some- 

 thin <r in exces« of a thousand people involved there. 



We have a division in Sunnyvale, Calif., which is the lead division 

 on the Polaris pT-oo-rnm. Now, there are many thousands of people 

 involved in that division. 



The Atomic Divisions of Westinsfhouse in the Pittsbura:h area, of 

 course, have been supplying nuclear reactors for submarines for many, 



