184 



Mr. Lennon. This is in addition ? 



Mr. Train. Yes. 



Mr. Lennon. I tliank the gentleman for yielding. 



Mr. McCloskey. In the administration bill that the chairman has 

 introduced, Mr. Train, on page 3 at line 10 I note that this bill applies 

 to any person, including employees of the Federal Government, with 

 the exception that Dejjartment employees are exempt from civil or 

 criminal penalties. Can you tell me why a Federal employee should 

 not be subject to penalty if he violates this law ? 



Mr. Train. I don't know what the answer to that is, Mr. McCloskey, 

 offhand. 



Mr. McCloskey. This may be a legal matter. 



Mr. TlJAiN. It definitely is, and I see it refers to section 6. 



Mr. McCloskey. That is the penalty section. They can violate this 

 law but not be subject to criminal or civil prosecution. 



Mr. Train. That is correct. 



Mr. McCloskey. I wonder if perhaps at this point in the record we 

 can afford the Council the opportunity to give us the legal explana- 

 tion as to why they seek to exclude Federal employees from civil and 

 criminal penalties. 



Mr. Lennon. Does Mr. Train understand the question ? 



Mr. Train. Yes, and I would be happy to provide an answer for the 

 record. 



Mr. Lennon. Would you provide a definitive answer because one of 

 the things that concerns me is the image of the American Government 

 particularly in relation to what its agencies and departments can do 

 with immunity and what industry and municipalities across the coun- 

 try cannot do. 



So definitively answer that question for the record. 



(The answer follows :) 



The exception from the penalty provisions is tliat contained in section 3(e), 

 which provides tliat the penalty and enforcement provisions of section 6 do not 

 apply to "any employee, agent, department, agency, or instrumentality of the 

 Fe<leral Government." The exception should be retained for Federal departments 

 and agencies since it would be pointless for one Federal agency to sue another 

 Federal agency to collect a i>enalty. The exception for Federal employees 

 and agents could be removed by rephrasing section 3(e) as follows : 



"(e) 'Person' means any private person or entity, any employee, agent, 

 department, agency, or instrumentality of any State or local unit of govern- 

 ment, or foreign government, any employee or agent of the Federal Govern- 

 ment, and except as to the provisions of section 6, any department, agency, 

 or instrumentality of Federal Government." 

 Elimination of the exception for Federal employees and agents is not rec- 

 ommended, however, since the Federal Government has traditionally used in- 

 ternal disciplinary measures, as authorized and sanctioned by Congress and 

 the courts, to secure compliance by Federal employees with Federal recom- 

 mendations or requirements. 



Mr. McCloskey. Tliank you, sir. 



The second question goes to a policy question, Mr. Train. I note 

 that in the bill the administration excludes sewer outfall structures 

 under the provisions of this act, and to my understanding the adminis- 

 tration is submitting separate legislation to apply to sewer outfalls 

 going into the oceans and the estuaries. I wonder if you could com- 

 ment briefly on the administrative stnicture which would result be- 



