438 



But one of the problems we do have are sometimes conflicting stand- 

 ards between air and water pollution agencies, and then agencies at 

 various levels of Government, and standards that change very quickly, 

 so it allows two things to happen. 



One is an industry that sincerely wants to do something about it 

 does not know what the standard is, and they don^ do anything. It 

 also gives the industry which does not want to do anything an ex- 

 cuse to drag their feet and say they will wait until they find out what 

 the standard is going to be. 



I see it as a function of our agency to try and make some sense out 

 of these conflicting standards, and try to give some clear signals to 

 people as to what is expected of them. 



We have not achieved it yet, but we are still trying. 



Mr. DuPoNT. Mr. Euckelshaus, you put it far better than I could 

 have put it, and that is exactly the problem. I think when we get to 

 ocean dumping, maybe we can avoid making a mistake made in the 

 Air Quality Act by removing the State jurisdictions to enact stand- 

 ards at all. 



Thank you. 



Mr. DiNGELL. Mr. Sharood. 



INir. Sharood. Mr. Ruckelshaus, I wonder if we could clarify one 

 problem I have with the State preemption requirement. 



If a State establishes requirements or standards under the act, will 

 5^ou continue in the role of issuing or denying permits for dumping, 

 or will the total burden be transferred to the State ? 



Mr. Ruckelshaus. Not mider the present provision of tlie act. Any- 

 body who is going to dump any material in the ocean will have to 

 liave a permit from, or any of the other areas of water covered under 

 the act, a permit from the Administrator of the EPA. 



The fact that a State requires another permit is a burden on the 

 dumper, but that is not a burden that is not duplicated in other areas 

 of our law. 



Mr. Sharood. Let's assume that the State did not require a permit, 

 but simply established a higher standard of some sort, and I have 

 some difficulty envisioning the kind of conditions the Stat-e might 

 impose with respect to ocean dumping. 



Would you then be guided by those State standards and deny or ap- 

 prove a permit based upon the higher State standards ? 



Mr. Ruckelshaus. No, w^e would not have any authority, other 

 than what were provided in our own standards. 



If we are gomg to treat people equally across the country, it seems 

 to m.e as far as our agency is concerned, you are entitled to a permit if 

 you comply with our standards. 



If States want to prohibit you from dumping witliin their juris- 

 dictions, then that is a problem between the State and the person who 

 wants to dump. 



IMr. Sharood. If the State adopts a higher standard, the party wish- 

 ing to dump would simply have to go into a contiguous zone in order 

 to avoid the State requirement ? 



Mr. Ruckelshaus. There is a question whether a State can, from a 

 ship origmating in its ports, control beyond the territorial seas, as 

 being one of their citizens of that State. 



