454 



Could you give us and idea of the dollar amount of research that 

 you actually feel is needed in this particular area, in connection with 

 the questions that I asked earlier that you said you would furnish? 



Mr. KucKELSHAus. We have a submission in our 1972 budget of 

 $1,100,000 for ocean disposal research. 



Mr. DiNGELL. That level will rise to what figure over a 5-year 

 period ? 



Air. RucKELSHATTS. The level for the bill itself, for the implementa- 

 tion of the act, which would not necessarily include research, because 

 we don't have that built into these figures in fiscal year 1972, starts at 

 $2 million, and then by 1977 we are down to 3.9, because I believe the 

 phasing out of much of ocean dumping that we now know, it might 

 not necessitate as grave an expenditure of m.oney. 



Mr. DiNGELL. You have mentioned — at the bottom of page 15, top 

 of page 16, you said as follows : 



Several of the bills pending before this committee would require designated 

 levels of treatment for municipal sewage and industrial wastes by specified dates. 

 This approach does not take into account variations in water use designations, 

 tlie quality or characteristics of the receiving waters, or other factors which 

 bear on the appropriate level of treatment in a given instance. 



That statement does not change or alter or indicate an intention by 

 your agency to change the no degradation requirement, over which a 

 monumental fight took place some time back, does it ? 



Mr. Ruc;i:ELSHAus. No, it does not. 



It might imply a certain qualification of the statement by Mr. Rogers 

 a little earlier, when we discussed deadlines in terms of secondary and 

 tertiary treatment, as to how we would go about insuring clean water 

 in the country. 



Mr. DiNGELL. Now, the reason I asked that is, I am apprehensive in 

 looking over my shoulder at some of the industrial and municipal folks 

 who have ideas we should utilize the streams and lakes and oceans up 

 to their assimilative capacity. The understanding I have had with 

 your agen( y previous to your taking office was that was not going to 

 be the poli-'y of the Public Health Service, and then the Interior De- 

 partment, and I think that is still not the policy, to allow the utiliza- 

 tion of thep3 waters up to that capacity. 



Mr. RucxELSHAus. No, that is not the policy. 



Mr. Din lELL. There is a requirement that you consult with the De- 

 partment of the Interior with regard to achievement with the levels, 

 or, rather with regard to criteria and so forth with regard to ocean 

 dumping, ])ut there is no similar requirement with regard to the is- 

 suance of permits. 



Can you explain the difference there ? 



Mr. RucKELSHATJs. I think the difference is mainly a difference be- 

 tvfeen substance and procedure, and that on the substantive matters, 

 V hich we would hope to cover in the criteria, upon which the issuance 

 of the permits would be based, we would want to insure that we had 

 .complete concurrence in these other affected agencies with substantive 

 requests that we were going to be making from the permittees, but as 

 ifar as actual administrative process of issuing the permits themselves, 

 there did not seem to be as great a need for coordination between the 

 aa'encies. 



