458 



Mr. KucKELSHAUs. It apparently refers to channels and pipelines 

 and things of that nature. 



We will supply for the committee the specific thing we have in mind. 

 (The information follows:) 



Upon further consideration, we believe that this phrase is unnecessary and may 

 appropriately be deleted from the bill. 



Mr. DiNGELL. Mr. Kuckelshaus, this is probably a question that 

 should have been asked earlier. It relates to just what authority and 

 which particular statute will apply where. 



Dealing with the different kinds of permits, the Water Pollution 

 Control Office will apply out to 3 miles, or 12 miles, under existing 

 statute ? 



Mr. Kuckelshaus. Under existing statute, they apply out to the 

 edge of the territorial sea, 3 miles. 



Mr. DiNGELL. From 3 miles out, if somebody puts a sewage outfall 

 or something of that kind, they are exempt from the water pollution 

 control law ? 



Mr. RucKELSiiAus. We have no authority now, except possibly under 

 the dredge and fill permit, the navigational permit of the Corps of En- 

 gineers, if they put an outfall out that far, they have to get a permit 

 to do so from the corps, and at the beginning of that process we may be 

 able to insure under section 21 (b) of the Water Pollution Control Act 

 that they meet pollution standards as well, water quality standards as 

 well, but once it is there, we cannot do anything about it. 



Mr. DiNGELL. The corps' permitting authority goes to 3 miles, as I 

 understand it, or do they go out ? 



Mr. Kuckelshaus. It is a navigational permit, and I think under 

 the control of the navigational aspects of anything in the water, we 

 could control what goes out at the end of that pipe. 



Mr. Dingell. Providing it had an impact on navigation, or would 

 you go under the guidelines of the Executive order that has been issued 

 by the President ? 



Mr. Kuckelshaus. We cannot go any further, under the permit 

 program, than the 3-mile limit, unless we can try and get hold of it 

 prior to construction of any outfall through the corps' other permit 

 authority under the dredge and fill. 



It is not at all clear that we can. I don't want to put too much 

 emphasis on this, because I am not sure we can. 



Mr. Dingell. This bill exempts outfalls, w'hich would mean that it 

 would exempt sewage emissions betvN'een 3 and 12 miles. Am I correct ? 



Mr. Kuckelshaus. That is right. 



Mr. Dingell. If we were to strike outfalls, what problems would 

 that create for you or the administration with regard to the projected 

 legislation which you are going to submit, or which has been sub- 

 mitted, to cover underwater quality standards the areas between 3 and 

 12 miles ? 



Mr. Kuckelshaus. It would present problems, because we would 

 have two separate permit programs going on for discharges into 

 waters, and in the case of the Great Lakes, or in the case of estuarine 

 areas, or the ocean. 



