124 NATIONAL OCEANOGRAPHIC PROGRAM—1965 
research programs to support whatever they see to be their national 
aims. I don’t think we have to take our hat off to any other nation, 
with the possible exception of the Russians. The Russians have a very 
substantial program, and they have been working at it for a number of 
years. They have a vigorous ship-of-opportunity program, I am sure, 
to get information from their trawlers and fishing vessels. I would 
say that they are probably your closest competitor. 
Mr. Lennon. In lead time in years, how much advantage does Rus- 
sia have, or putting it in a more direct question, how long have they 
been engaged in the oceanographic research compared with our pro- 
gram of oceanographic research ? 
Captain Treapweti. I do not know exactly, Mr. Chairman, but 
their major advances in this came to my attention at about the same 
time that the United States first began to become aware of the poten- 
tialities. I think that this increasing awareness of the importance 
and value of oceanography occurred almost simultaneously world- 
wide, in the immediate postwar period. 
Mr. Lennon. Are you saying in your judgment that we have 
enough, or enough as reasonably projected for the near future, in 
oceanographic ships or ships capable of oceanography research in 
the various fields of oceanography ? 
Captain Treapwetz. I would say that the shipbuilding program 
to date has been generally commensurate with the funding of the re- 
mainder of the program. They have not been too far out of line. It 
is always very tempting to cut a ship out of the oceanographic pro- 
gram. It is a large chunk of easily identifiable cash which can be 
trimmed, and you do not see the detrimental effect of this trimming 
for some time in the future. 
I think that the place where our lack of advance on the shipbuilding 
program will show up is perhaps 5 to 10 years in the future. Then 
many of the older ships which we have in stock right now will begin 
to break down, as they are beginning to do already. If we have not 
planned and built the ships to replace them, 5 years from now we are 
gong to be in serious difficulty. 
Mr. Lennon. Captain, with the Navy and the Coast and Geodetic 
Survey and Coast Guard and the Bureau of Commercial Fisheries and 
the Department of the Interior engaged in the meaningful objectives 
of oceanography in their respective fields, is there any degree of dupli- 
cation or overlapping that is unnecessary ? 
Captain Treapwet. No, sir; none has come to my attention. Du- 
plication in surveys and in research is, I believe, very largely elimi- 
nated at the panel and the ICO level. With regard to duplication in 
the shipbuilding program itself, I do not foresee that within the near 
future anyone is going to have enough ships so that duplication would 
be likely. 
Mr. Lennon. How long have you served as chairman of this par- 
ticular panel, Captain ? 
Captain TREADWELL. About 2 years, sir. 
Mr. Lennon. And how many meetings of your panel group would 
you say have taken place during this period of 2 years? 
Captain TrrapwELu. I would guess we have met formally about 14 
to 20 times in the last 2 years. Our work, of course, is very seasonal, in 
the preparation of the annual shipbuilding program and in the prepa- 
