35 



deep ocean waters contain large amounts of nutrients. If you 

 upwell those to the plants, it provides excellent fertilization. 



Mr. FoRSYTHE. Is that basically done with the curtain, chimney 

 effect rather than pumping? 



Dr. Flowers. We do it on the test farm using diesel pumps to 

 pump it up and in a commercial system we visualize using wave 

 power pumping systems which would require no energy at all, and 

 this is one of the program plans. In fact, there is some initial work 

 underway. 



Mr. FoRSYTHE. Have you proposed any numbers on net energy 

 input and output with this kelp development? 



Dr. Flowers. The net energy studies that we have done, General 

 Electric has done for us inhouse indicates about a 70-percent effi- 

 ciency and if we substitute wave power pumping for diesel power 

 pumping, that could be increased, we think, to about 80 percent. 



Mr. FoRSYTHE. I think you stated that there are no environmen- 

 tal impacts, is that correct? 



Dr. Flowers. No, sir, I did not mean to imply that, sir. We do 

 not feel like there are any major environmental impacts. We know 

 that there will be some which we will have to take care of but we 

 do not think there are major obstacles. 



Mr. FoRSYTHE. How about fish, what does it do to the fish? 



Dr. Flowers. As it turns out, kelp beds are one of the best 

 havens that fish have ever found. Matter of fact, a good amount of 

 the ocean, of the fish farming off the California coast is the kelp 

 beds. The fish just love the kelp. 



Mr. FoRSYTHE. Is this going to disrupt the fish harvest if this is 

 done on a massive scale? 



Dr. Flowers. No; we think it will increase it very much. We 

 think it will increase the fish population and increase the harvest- 

 able fish. 



Mr. FoRSYTHE. Have you run into any governmental problems in 

 terms of permits or regulations that are going to be problems down 

 the road? 



Dr. Flowers. I cannot actually answer that question. The gov- 

 ernmental bodies that we had to check with to get the test farm in 

 the water to allow that, all of those bodies that we checked with 

 were all very positive and very cooperative. Frankly, way down- 

 streain when you are talking about very large scale streams, I do 

 not think it is our own governmental body that we need to worry 

 about so much than some others. 



Mr. Studds. Could you supply us for the record with a list of 

 those governmental agencies at all levels of government in which 

 you did or had to consult in order to do that? 



Dr. Flowers. Yes, sir, I would be happy to do that. 



[The following was received for the record:] 



General Electric Co., 

 Reentry & Environmental Systems Division, 



Philadelphia, Pa., October 3, 1979. 

 Gas Research Institute, 

 Chicago, III. 

 (Attention of Dr. Ab Flowers, Director, Gas Supply Research). 



Dear Ab: Attachment A to this letter provides the data requested by the House 

 Subcommittee on Oceanography asked during your testimony on September 26th. I 



