776 
it from the angle which you have suggested it might give us some 
fortification as far as a plan. If we just talked about marine functions 
then we are not necessarily robbing some other committee of some 
jurisdiction they have. We have had very difficult times in this Con- 
gress over that. We reported a bill here the other day to set up a 
Council of Environmental Quality, environmental advisers to the 
President, and immediately someone objected before the Rules Com- 
mittee because it had to do with resources and their committee really 
had charge of resources in the land, and we never got our rule. 
Here is one of the most important things that we could do for the 
country today in order to try to solve the problems of our environment 
but we ran into a jurisdictional question. 
This is going to be a very helpful bit of testimony on the record, 
I think, and Tam v ery appreciative of your appearance here today. 
Mr. Downtne. Mr. Feighan. 
Mr. Frienan. Dr. Schaefer, I have listened with interest to your 
presentation and also to your answers to the inquiries by my distin- 
guished colleagues, Messrs. Mosher, Karth and Pelly. I just want to 
say that I believe that your contr ‘bution has been very significant. 
Thank you. 
Dr. Scuarrer. Thank you, sir. 
Mr. Downine. Dr. Schaefer, you mentioned international relations 
in this field. Is that really at the present time a great problem with 
pccg neg raniers and with research efforts / 
Scuarrer. Yes. In fact, it is becoming more and more exacer- 
iad The number of cases of refusal of permission has been going 
up ata doubling time, I would say, of about a year or 2 years. 
Mr. Downrnc. You are free to roam the international waters. 
Dr. Scuarrer. Yes. The question is where international waters end, 
you see. There is the matter of freedom of scientific research on the 
seabed. Different countries have different ideas about how far out the 
national jurisdiction over the seabed goes. There is also the matter 
of contiguous fishing zones, and differ ent countries have different ideas 
about that. So, although everyone recognizes that there is freedom of 
research on the high seas, these high seas are getting a little smaller all 
the time, also there are some kinds of research for which one has to go 
into the area that is clearly within the coastal States’ jurisdiction. For 
one example, in relation to the Convention on the Continental Shelf, as 
I said before paragraph 1 of article 5 of the convention provides that 
there shall be no interference with fundamental oceanographic or 
other scientific investigations with the intention of open publication, 
but paragraph 8 of the same article provides that the consent of the 
coastal State shall be obtained with respect of any investigations con- 
cerning the Continental Shelf and undertaken there, although it goes 
on to say that permission should not normally be denied. But it often 
is. In order, say, for a geologist to make a comparative study of the 
geology of the ‘eortiimen fell shely es of the eastern and western Atlan- 
tic, he has to be able to go and take samples in both places. 
We also run into the problem of what is meant by “undertaken 
there.” Our Government has instructed the scientific community that 
as long as we are not taking any samples, as long as we are just using 
our echo sounder, or taking echo- soundings of the subbottom struc- 
tures, this isn’t “undertaken there. * However, this is of not very much 
