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mental protection acts, none of these acts require that you take 
economic costs into play when you consider the protection of the 
environment, except that Judge Sofaer mandated that this tradeoff 
be taken into play, virtually assuring that the oceans would be 
used. Here is a case where the city of New York, very understand- 
ably, wants to get by with the minimal expenditure in disposal of 
its ocean sludge. 
Jacques Cousteau said that he did not think economic costs 
ought to be taken into consideration. I do not know whether you 
agree with him on that one also; I would suggest you do not, but I 
wanted to find some point of departure. Would you respond to 
that? 
Mayor Kocu. Easily. Mr. Chairman, I do not believe for one 
moment that this committee or any member of this committee be- 
lieves that economic costs are not a consideration in any action 
that you mandate. Let us assume for a moment that it was not $45 
million that was involved or $21 million for that particular move. 
Let us assume it was $210 million. Let us assume it was $2 billion. 
Is there no point where economic costs become involved? Shall we 
take our whole operating budget and deal with this? Shall we lay 
off cops? Obviously economic costs are involved. 
Mr. D’Amours. Of course, but those are not the amounts of 
money in controversy. Judge Sofaer mandated that economic costs 
at all levels must be considered. 
Mayor Kocu. Of course. 
Mr. D’Amours. No other act does that. 
Mayor Kocu. Mr. Chairman, I believe the key point is that Con- 
gress, when it spends its own money, or requires the expenditure of 
moneys by localities by mandating what we shall do—and you obvi- 
ously have that right to do that, wants cost-effectiveness. You want 
to make effective use of resources. 
All of us want a pristine environment. If I took the whole budget 
of the city of New York, and devoted it totally to upgrading the air, 
we would have terrific air and no jobs. Does anybody want that? 
Mr. D’Amours. I am very familiar with that argument. I have 
heard it made many times—— 
Mayor Kocu. It is a valid argument. 
Mr. D’Amours [continuing]. In the environmental debate, and I 
think nobody wants to exceed one way or the other. 
Let me make a proposition to you. We spoke about this earlier. 
Would you be interested, as the mayor of New York, in some alter- 
ing of the staff proposal which has been circulated, which I know 
you have seen, that would not perhaps totally ban dumping in the 
bight but only ban dumping that exceeds EPA standards, both for 
sewage sludge and dredge materials. It would say that only those 
which exceeded EPA standards would have to be transported to the 
further site. I think that might save considerable money for New 
York. Would that kind of a change interest you? 
Mayor Kocu. Let me just say that it cannot be done, Mr. Chair- 
man. After we discussed it, I asked our people. It cannot be done 
because there is no way, when this sludge is a runoff from our 
sewers, of separating the contaminants. It is quite true, as you 
pointed out to me, and you were correct, that of the sludge in- 
