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Mayor Kocu. I think, sir, the Federal Government must not for- 
sake the obligation which it has had to date to finance these ef- 
forts. I also believe that each locality which engages in dumping 
ought to bear some of the cost of monitoring in the particular area 
of its dumpsite. At the moment I am told that the permittees’ mon- 
itoring of the Apex area costs about $300,000. New York City pays 
half of that. It seems to me that that could be increased, and we 
should pay a proportionate share. 
Mr. ForsyTHE. That deals with just one area, monitoring. Obvi- 
ously the research is perhaps even more important if we’re to find 
any answers. 
Mayor Kocu. It is. I believe, Mr. Forsythe, that the research and 
development costs associated with removal of contaminants should 
be borne by industry. It should not be borne by municipalities. In 
fact, I am now scanning my memory on this issue, but I recall that 
such taxes were imposed in the Ruhr Valley in Germany to cleanse 
the Ruhr River and were successful, and that might be looked at as 
a model. 
Mr. ForsyTHE. What would be your reaction, for instance, to 
some kind of a user tax on sludge with a mandate that it be fun- 
neled back again into this research? 
Mayor Kocu. I would like to distinguish between a user tax and 
appropriate research and development funding. Once you put it in 
the form of a user tax, in that language, then it becomes a reve- 
nue-producing item for revenue sake. A more acceptable approach 
is to develop a reasonable program to do monitoring research and 
development, and assess its costs among those who are doing the 
polluting in industry. I would support that approach. 
Mr. ForsyTHE. I think we are saying the same thing. 
Mayor Kocu. Yes, but I just wanted to avoid a user tax, which 
some people have put into the millions, as opposed to what would 
be appropriate for a specific monitoring program. 
Mr. ForsyTHE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 
Mr. D’Amours. Thank you, Mr. Forsythe. 
Mr. Biaggi? 
Mr. Braaci. I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman. 
Ed, I believe you have made a case. Frankly, I always did. Mr. 
Forsythe’s line of questioning obviated the need for me to pursue 
it. 
I was looking through the testimony of the National Wildlife 
Federation, talking about alternate landfill sites. Let me tell you 
something. I have one in my district. I dare you to come up there 
with anything like sewage sludge. With all due respect to you, Mr. 
Mayor, never entertain that idea, because there will be a revolu- 
tion. 
Mayor Kocu. I will not go there with that suggestion unless you 
come with me. 
Mr. Bracci. The point I am making is that whoever suggested 
landfills is not dealing in the world of reality. I think the only one 
left that is still open might be the one in Staten Island, and even 
that is bordering on full capacity. What we are looking for is alter- 
nate methods for solid waste disposal. To suggest more landfills, I 
do not know if those persons do so in good faith or are just not 
properly informed or just reaching out for an alternative. But let 
