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Mr. HuGuHes. Ed, I would bet you that your philosophy would be 
much akin today to what it was back in 1976, if we were talking 
about Long Island Sound and not off my beaches. 
Mayor Kocu. I do not think so. 
Mr. Huaues. I have a feeling that you would be hearing many 
more compliants than on porpoise matters. 
Mayor Kocu. What I would do, frankly, is the following. It is 
always a balancing of interests: What do you get for the money you 
are spending? I think the Congress today has reached that point, 
just as mayors have, just as I have. There is no question that 5 or 6 
years ago, I would have voted for much more expensive things, not 
caring about it, because I was not paying for it. When I say “T’, I 
mean the Federal Government was not paying for it. The Federal 
Government was mandating expenditures by localities. Then I 
became the chief executive of a locality. Now I look to Mount 
Olympus, and I say, “What did you do to us? We don’t have the 
money to do this.” 
Mr. Hucues. That is understandable. We are talking about ocean 
policy, and you are taiking about ocean policy, additially, you are 
talking about what is best for New York. I understand that. 
Mayor Kocu. No, not just New York. I think all localities have 
the same feeling. 
Mr. Huaues. My time is about up, but let me make another ob- 
servation. You indicate in your testimony, and I know that you are 
being candid about it, that you do not see that we are creating any 
problems in the New York Bight area. 
Mayor Kocu. I do not see any significant degradation. 
Mr. Hucues. As you well know, as you bring on more waste 
water treatment facilities, as you are going to in the next few 
years, the incidence of sewage sludge dumping is going to increase. 
We really have not moved very expeditiously in pretreatment or 
interception of materials at their source, as you well know. So that, 
as a result, when you look at the warning signs, we notice that we 
nae major problems there. We do not understand what is taking 
place. 
You mentioned the pinelands. That happens to be in my district. 
We are not dumping sewage sludge in the ocean, Ed. Very few 
places have the luxury of an ocean to dump in, and other places 
are managing to cope with these problems. We understand that 
you have a myriad of problems and we want to balance the inter- 
ests. But the fact of the matter is that sludge dumping is cheaper. 
As long as it is cheaper, unfortunately that is going to be the easi- 
est way for municipalities such as New York City. 
The reason the law was put into effect in the first place was be- 
cause, as the chairman said, the oceans have very little of a con- 
stituency; people do not vote out there. As a result, because they 
have to be protected, because they do not have a constituency, and 
because it is the easiest and cheapest way, it is important for us to 
try and provide additional incentives for cities like New York City 
to reduce the incidence of ocean dumping. It is as simple as that. 
Cost is the bottom line. That is why you do not want to go to the 
106-mile site. I hear what you are saying about the fact that it is a 
very sensitive area, and it is, and we are looking at what harm it 
