284 
Mr. CARNEY. From the city? 
Mr. McGouau. Yes. There will be some small areas for which 
this will not be true, but these will not be significant as compared 
to the total sewage flow. 
Let me also state that the city has a combined sewer system. In 
heavy rainfall, not all of the water that enters the sewer is able to 
be treated by the plant, and the regulator gates open and allow it 
to go into the rivers and estuaries surrounding the city. That is an 
inescapable problem with a combined sewer system. 
Mr. Carney. Mr. Commissioner, would you provide for the record 
two things: One, the points that will continue to dump the sewage; 
and two, the associated impact of rainwater that would be dumped 
raw into the river under circumstances of heavy rainfall? 
Mr. McGouau. I would be glad to do that. 
Mr. Carney. Thank you. My next question, Mr. Mayor, is this. 
The figures you provided for us, the $45 million versus $3.5 mil- 
lion—— 
Mayor Kocu. That is $45 million on land. 
Mr. CaRNEY. Right. My question is this. Is that pertaining solely 
to sludge and not to dredge material? 
Mayor Kocu. I am so informed, yes. 
Mr. Carney. Could you provide for us the cost of dredge materi- 
al? 
Ms. SEALE. The EPA has estimated, in its recently completed 
EIS, for the mud dump disposal site, that the additional costs for 
going to sites outside the apex, just transportation costs, would be 
between $48 and $66 million per year. These figures assume a $0.06 
per cubic yard/nautical mile cost. 
That does not include the cost of upgrading a fleet to transport 
approximately 10 million cubic yards per year out that far. There 
simply are not the kind of barges and tugs that would be necessary 
in the harbor now to do that. So there would be capital costs associ- 
ated with a new fleet, in addition to those annual operating or 
transportation costs. 
Mr. CARNEY. Could you provide for the committee the amount of 
land that you could identify as being available for sewage sludge 
disposal and for dredge materials disposal? 
Mayor Kocu. What do you mean? For land? 
Mr. CARNEY. Yes, sir. 
Mayor Kocu. We are not able to do that, because we do not be- 
lieve that such land sites exist in the city of New York that we 
could use for that purpose. 
Mr. CarNeEy. Do you have any for dredge material, any sites for 
dredge material? 
Ms. SEALE. I do not think the sites would be any different. It is 
ey, a question of availability of land. The space simply is not 
there. 
Joe, is there any reason why there would be any difference? 
Mr. McGouau. No. What we looked at when we were trying to 
meet the 1981 deadline were landfill areas, that had been aban- 
doned and closed down, and undeveloped park land. I think the 
total acreage was something like 2,800 acres. This would have per- 
mitted composting on land for a 7-year timeframe, just for sludge. 
