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simply do not have answers. That is a large part of the reason why 
we brought the lawsuit; not just to save money. We were preparing 
to meet that deadline. It was not just the money. The question was, 
“Are we doing the right thing?’ That is how we see it. It may even- 
tually turn out that land disposal is the most environmentally 
sound alternative. If that is eventually the preferable alternative 
then we would accept it. 
Mayor Kocu. But we should not assume it until it is established. 
Mr. CARNEY. Commissioner McGough, going back to the raw 
sewage problem, I do not recall whether you answered the question 
as to the timeframe when those plants would be completed. 
Mr. McGoucu. No, I do not think we did. For North River, it 
will be June 1986 and for Red Hook January 1987. These are our 
target dates, for stemming the raw discharge of sewage. 
May I make another point. The moneys that we would have to 
spend to meet any new deadline to get out of the ocean would be 
taken away from the efforts which we and other municipalities are 
taking to stem raw sewage discharge. Sludge dumping only ac- 
counts for, at most, 10 percent of the contaminant load on the 
bight. Raw sewage discharges and urban runoff accounts for the 
bulk of the contamination load in the bight. Even if all the sludge 
dumpers got out of the bight, you would still have at least 90 per- 
cent of the existing problem, if not more. 
We think that it would be a mistake to divert the funds at this 
point away from the stemming of raw sewage discharge. 
Mr. Carney. I agree with you, Mr. Commissioner, but I would 
also have to point out that as we progress, the ratio has to change, 
because we are now processing the raw sewage into a product 
known as sludge. So there will be more sludge and less raw sewage. 
So there is a problem there. 
I would ask simply, not in a question form but in a request form, 
that you provide for this committee a record of the activities of 
New York City from 1977 to date on what you have done to try to 
meet the 1981 mandate. I do not want to waste too much time on 
that. But if you do that, I would fully appreciate that. I would like 
an opportunity to look at it myself. 
My final question to the mayor is this: Of your 12 plants, will 
they all produce sludge, or are you going into any other techniques 
to get rid of the byproducts, that sludge that you would have to 
either land base or dump in the ocean? 
Mayor Kocu. I would have to ask the commissioner on that. 
Mr. McGoueu. We are trying different methods of treating the 
sludge, digesting it, and otherwise treating it to reduce its bulk and 
so forth. But these techniques will not totally eliminate sludge pro- 
duction, which I believe is what you are asking about. 
Mr. Carney. The difficulty I have is this. I represent an area 
that under Public Law 92-500 built an enormous sewer district. 
The sewer district cost us almost $1 billion. It has a long history. I 
am sure the mayor is familiar with the southwest sewer district. 
Mayor Kocu. Everybody is familiar with that one. 
Mr. CaRNEY. That is correct. But with all its problems, the out- 
come of the southwest sewer district is one that will allow us to 
incinerate the sludge material and landfill it without a liner, be- 
cause the ash byproduct will meet all the parameters set by the 
