341 
Mr. HuGueEs. I think it is important to challenge the EPA legisla- 
tively and otherwise, but I am not going to fool myself into believ- 
ing that because we embarrass administration officials here before 
this committee that that is going to be sufficient pressure, nor do I 
believe that if the EPA will not be responsive to us with regard to 
one law that they would not do the same thing with any law that 
we would enact. I do believe, however, that as a general rule, attor- 
neys in the Justice Department do not like to be reversed and rep- 
rimanded. That, to me, appears to be the most viable of all the al- 
ternatives we have. I am not saying that we should not approach it 
from every angle we can and try to address it legislatively, but I 
think we are kidding ourselves if we think the administration 
would not find ways to circumvent the policies that we have estab- 
lished under new law. 
Mr. KAMLET. There is a higher authority than—— 
Mr. HuGuHEs. Yes, but it is going to be a number of years before 
they reach that higher authority. 
Mr. KAMLET. There is a higher authority than the administra- 
tion, the Congress, or any other established part of the system, and 
that is the people of this country. I am seeing increasing evidence 
that the public is starting to reach the point that they are not will- 
ing to tolerate any more the environmental abuses that are being 
perpetuated by this administration. 
We have incident after incident in the New York Bight of people 
in private vessels seeking to interfere with dumping operations. We 
do not condone that type of activity, but the fact is it is going on. It 
is going on not only on the part of environmental groups, but on 
the part of fishermen, fishing interests. In connection with propos- 
als to test dump dredged materials in borras pits in New York 
Harbor, we are aware—and these incidents were publicized, I be- 
lieve—of fishing vessels accompanying the Corps of Engineers ves- 
sels and the NOAA research vessels out to the site of that disposal 
to doublecheck what was going on there and to express their con- 
cern with that dumping operation. That is happening more and 
more. 
I think the weight of public sentiment and reaction against 
abuse of the ocean is going to continue to mount. Maybe that is a 
message the administration will hear even if they do not listen to 
what this committee does or what past Congresses have done and 
do not take court orders terribly seriously. That is the sort of voice 
that none of us can ignore. 
Mr. Hucues. That is true. I share your hope. They say where 
there is life there is hope eternal. 
Let me ask you this: What is the status of any other matters 
arising out of ocean dumping that might be before the courts of 
appeal in the country? There was a decision of the Federal District 
Court of New Jersey that I believe is up on appeal. 
Mr. KaM et. I think you may be referring to the lawsuits by six 
New Jersey municipalities against EPA raising many of the same 
issues that were addressed and decided in the New York City case. 
Those cases, to my knowledge, have not yet been decided at the 
district court level, although the judge recently has ordered a 
status hearing to take place on those six lawsuits for a date in 
May. I do not recall the precise date. However, the indications are 
