71 



Mr. Hughes. I didn't hear all the responses to the chairman of 

 the committee, but he was pursuing an area dealing with just what 

 impacts sludge has in the overall bight area. I think everybody ac- 

 knowledges that sludge is one of the polluters, one of a series. 



Mr. ScHATZow. Right. 



Mr. Hughes. A series of acts take place everyday which contrib- 

 ute to the distress of the New York Bight. 



In the past, the testimony has been we are not really certain 

 with any of the scientific aspects of it as to how much each of the 

 different media contribute. We don't know how much runoff con- 

 tributes, we know it contributes to the pollution in the bight, 

 though. We don't know how much the raw sewage may contribute, 

 but it is contributing. 



Mr. ScHATZOW. I think we have been able in the past as we have 

 today been able to give reasonably good estimates in terms of each 

 of these sources in terms of weight or volume of representative in- 

 terests. 



Mr. Hughes. But they are estimates. We can't with certainty tell 

 how much sludge is contributing. But we have estimates. 



Mr. ScHATZOW. No, I think we are fairly close. Again, I think we 

 are close within a range that is adequate to give that information. 

 That doesn't answer the question, obviously, Congressman, of if we 

 take out one source what will be the level of improvement? We can 

 say if you take out one soruce that we can get ride of x percent of 

 the PCB's or get rid of x percent of solids. 



To go from that point and say, OK get rid of x percent of the 

 PCB's, what does that mean in terms of aquatic life or what does it 

 mean in terms of the environmental improvement, that is a much 

 more difficult task. 



Mr. Hughes. You anticipated where I was trying to take you. 



Mr. ScHATZOW. But the numbers we have are generally fairly 

 good. I don't think there is substantial disagreement within the 

 ranges we are talking about when we say it is sewage sludge dump- 

 ing at about 10 percent, it doesn't seem to me we have to do a hell 

 of lot more studies to figure out whether it is really 7 percent or 9 

 percent. I don't think that is relevant. 



Mr. Hughes. I think that you probably have summarized what I 

 think is a fair statement, but the point I am aiming for — and you 

 have anticipated it — is the question of how much are we going to 

 improve the New York Bight if we cease dumping sewage sludge? 

 Is it going to be a substantial improvement? Is it going to be a sig- 

 nificant improvement? 



Mr. ScHATZOW. Again, I guess my perception is those are terms 

 of art and I don't know scientifically if we can define them well. I 

 think what we have said, what NOAA has said, is that the combi- 

 nation of a variety of cleanup activities, many of which are statuto- 

 rily required under the Clean Water Act in terms of pretreatment 

 programs and point source controls as well as getting a better 

 handle on dredge material dumping and by moving the — stopping 

 the sewage sludge dumping at the 12-mile site, that the combina- 

 tion of these activities gives us a very significant improvement in 

 the water quality and uses of the bight apex. 



Mr. Hughes. My 5 minutes has expired. I will approach the next 

 round from another perspective. 



