232 



Using your estimates of sludge production, as to which I have an- 

 other question, the total cost then would range from $12.9 million 

 to $18.4 million depending on the length of the contract as I have 

 already indicated. 



So this implies, I think, that if the city got out of the sludge 

 hauling business and went to private industry the city would save 

 even by your production estimates about $8 to $13 million a year. 

 That doesn't take into account the salvage value of the city's fleet. 



I would like to know your or your aide's response to that. 



Mayor Koch. Could I have the commissioner respond. 



Mr. McGouGH. I am not aware of the proposal the committee re- 

 ceived but our figures were based on our own experience in using 

 barging companies to haul sludge from New York City. What our 

 proposal includes is the use of our vessels, which over the past 

 always have been demonstrated to be more cost-effective in hauling 

 sludge than private contractors. 



So our proposal included the full use of our fleet and the use of 

 private barges only to take that which we could not remove be- 

 cause of the limited capability of our fleet. When you go greater 

 distances you have longer turnaround times and therefore you 

 have more wet tons that you cannot move yourself. 



Not being familiar with the individual proposal I can only say 

 that in the past our costs have always been demonstratively lower 

 than that of a private carter. That is all I can tell you. It was based 

 on those figures that our figures were used in the testimony. 



Mr. D' Amours. I would like to point out that the information we 

 received was not hypothetical. It was actually quoted to the Passaic 

 Valley Sewage Commissioners as an offer. So we are not speaking 

 hypothetically here. I think that the numbers raise some question 

 as to the cost projections you have made. 



Mr. Gift. There is one other item included in the city's estimate 

 and that is the cost of additional storage that would be required in 

 terms of some of the backup for weather contingencies that you 

 have to have because of shipping longer distances to sea. That cost 

 would not be included in the cost estimate from the shipping firm. 



Mr. D' Amours. OK. 



That question was raised by staff with the A&S Transportation 

 Co. and they indicated that storage cost would not be necessary be- 

 cause their capacity was such that they could handle the volume of 

 sludge produced by the city. 



Notwithstanding the storage that might or might not be re- 

 quired, the city's proposal raises questions as to cost and I would 

 suggest that it is certainly something the city of New York should 

 be looking into. The record will remain open for any further re- 

 sponse you would like to make. 



Mayor Koch. Would it be permissible to get whatever letter you 

 have from the company? 



Mr. D' Amours. We would make that available to you. 



Mayor Koch. We will be in touch with that company to be sure 

 we can square away the figures. 



Mr. D' Amours. We can make that available to you today. 



The other question I have, has to do with your sludge production 

 numbers. Your total cost per year is based on 1982 costs and sludge 



