187 
areas that are off limits at certain times of the year for purposes of 
replenishing the herd of various commercial fish. Has that been taken 
into consideration? You refer to the ecological breeding grounds. 
Mr. Howarp. I believe the area in the fishing agreement which will 
not be fished is a fairly large area, something like 52 square miles, 
in the new agreement that was signed last year, farther south in New 
Jersey away from the New York Bight area. It had been more squared 
off before and farther north. This would not be in that area. I do 
not think that would be a problem. 
We should assure, if we do move it out, that we do not move it to 
that area. That is farther south. 
Mr. Grover. I agree with the gentelman, and I think we are all in 
agreement, that one cubic yard of waste is too much in the waters. I 
_do not know how far we can go. If we go far enough to make it rela- 
tively secure, we face the problem of perhaps waiting a year until the 
towing companies can get the equipment to take it out there, and then 
come a cropper on the frustrating problem of getting international 
agreement. 
If we go out only 30 miles, as you say, we are just putting the 
problem off for a little while longer. 
Mr. Howarp. Until we get some answers that we just do not have 
now, for the use of sludge on land. 
Mr. Frey. I just wonder if the penalty provided by the bill is suf- 
ficient. It provides a penalty of $10,000. Maybe it should be increased 
somewhat. 
Mr. Howarp. This is not a firm figure. I am sure when the committee 
goes into this and discusses dollar amounts, It could be revised. 
Mr. Karru. I think what the witness is talking about is $10,000 
per incident. It would be a daily incident, I assume. A $10,000-per-day 
fine is something no industrial firm could stand from the financial 
standpoint. 
Mr. Frey. You have the trouble of consolidating the trial on sep- 
arate incidents. As a practical matter, if you were prosecuting it, you 
probably would go for one. I think these $10,000-a-day things in prac- 
tice have not worked out as well as they look on paper. 
Mr. Kartu. Would $10,000 per day satisfy the point the gentleman 
raises ? 
Mr. Frey. No. ; : 
Mr. Karru. Then I suggest along with it, perhaps the committee 
can agree to a revision of the penalty. ; 
Mr. Frey. I guess you do not have any problem with State river 
valley authorities that are acting independently. 
Mr. Howarp. I believe there are authorities in New Jersey that 
could have control over the operations. I think we delude ourselves 
somewhat in continually harping on industry as the polluters. [ am 
sure a great amount of this pollution, of this sludge, is brought about 
by municipal wastes following sewage treatment plants. So it is the 
towns, the cities, and the people who are doing the polluting, not some 
faraway wealthy company that we can throw a big fine on and become 
indignant about, which points out we really have to find a solution, 
because it is the people who are polluting more than industry. 
Mr. Frey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 
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