153 



point. I would like to turn to tlie point which you raised about the 

 efforts of private enterprise in this fiehl and tlie amount of money that 

 they are putting into it as compared to the public moneys. 



It raises a point that I wanted to make and I think I will make it 

 right here wdth your slight opening of the door by that statement. 



I am quite concerned that exploitation and extraction of the re- 

 sources of the sea do not follow some of the sorry history of exploita- 

 tion and extraction on the land. I have come to the conclusion that there 

 are three types of subsidy that occur, subsidies precedent, which is in 

 the money that the Government makes available for R. & D. along 

 with private enterprise. There is simultaneous subsidy in which we 

 cooperate with private enterprise in achieving an end, and all of these 

 are well known ; but the third kind of subsidy is only now beginning 

 to make itself known and that is subsidy subsequent. When the extrac- 

 tion and exploitation creates cumulative burdens which are left out of 

 the assessment of the true cost, you have false profits and you have a 

 disjunction between the people who get the benefits and the people 

 who have the burdens. 



The most dramatic expression of that was in a story that came out 

 of Wales where they have been extracting coal out of the ground for 

 a long time and piling the tailings on the hillside and that day, with 

 an accumulation of tailing and just the right amount of rain, it all 

 slipped down the side of the mountain, wiped out the trees, wiped out 

 the houses, and wiped out a school containing over 200 children. 



So, in my judgment, that was a price that was paid for the extrac- 

 tion of coal which had never been entered into the books and it was 

 visited upon those who had none of the benefits directly from the 

 activity. 



It appears to me that we are beginning to get to the point where we 

 are trying to think this through, and I think that is why the idea of 

 getting a broader based advisory committee is important, getting it 

 on a national basis and getting us out of what I spoke of yesterday to 

 Dr. Bauer about this tunnel vision and the wells of activity in which 

 we do not take any responsibility for or any account of some of the 

 cumulative factors of load, of burden, which ultimately somebody has 

 to pay for. Since we now have to pay to clear the river and the people 

 who put that pollution in the river never carried on their books any- 

 thing to pay for that and the taxpayers are going to pay for it, so we 

 have here a prime example of susbsidy subsequent. 



I think that the gentleman has pointed out that we have to have in- 

 cluded in our structure for this activity that kind of input which will 

 take into consideration this historical experience. 



Am I correct in interpreting what you are saying ? 



Dr. KiRKBEiDE. I agree with that philosophy ; yes, sir. 



Mr. Hanna. I would certainly hope that one of the inputs that we 

 can provide in these hearings is the ringing message that we under- 

 stand now that this is part of the responsibility of a committee of Con- 

 gress in expressing the policies and the aims in any proo:ram. I think 

 with the expressions that have previously been made that you have 

 contributed a great deal to our hearings on this matter, and I congrat- 

 ulate you for it. 



Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 



26-563— 69— pt. 1 11 



