188 



Go ahead, sir, and answer my own question. Do you want to com- 

 ment on that statement ? 



Dr. Kavanagh. No. I am merely stating that the National Academy 

 of Engineering- does not take positions generally on governmental 

 ■organization. This we felt was beyond the scope of our assignment. 

 iVe were advising technically and programwise but not specifically on 

 the details of governmental organization. 



'Mr. Lennox. I take it then that you wouldn't have any comments 

 with respect to recommending a governmental structure of NCAA. 

 You have no position on that. It just seemed to me that, since you had 

 been in the position of engineering adviser in the field of oceanography 

 to the State Department, to the Navy, to the Department of the In- 

 terior, to Commerce, and all of these other federal agencies, that hope- 

 fully you would be in a position to make some definitive statement with 

 respect to this report. 



I find that I am a little bit disappointed that you have not. If this 

 committee cannot get the judgments of those people who are in a posi- 

 tion to make a judgment as professionals in this field, it is going to be 

 difficult to get it from laymen regardless of their association with the 

 Federal Government. I don't mean to belabor the point, but I am hop- 

 ing that there are members of your panels, Doctor, who could at some 

 future date come to the committee and give us these specific recom- 

 mendations because ultimately a decision is going to have to be made 

 by the Members of Congress, and we are just simple laymen and have 

 to rely on those of you who have the expertise in the field and especially 

 those of you who for more than two and a half years have been giving 

 advice to all the departments and agencies of the Federal Government 

 related to the field that we are talking about. 



The gentleman from California, Mr. Hanna. 



Mr. Hanna. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to apologize for not 

 being here at the presentation of your testimony but I have been able 

 to read it since I have come into the room. I would like to take the 

 opportunity in the presence of the gentleman, Mr. Chairman, to make 

 a couple of points that I have had in my mind to try on several wit- 

 nesses. 



First of all, it has been evident to me that there is a great deal of 

 problem for the Congress, particularly this committee, on this sub- 

 ject matter to get the appropriate inputs from the scientific com- 

 munity for the reason that there is a longstanding history of some con- 

 flict between the various branches of science as to their appraisal of 

 their own standing in a particular field and their appraisal of per- 

 haps contending sciences in the same field, and then I have noted a not 

 inconsequential kind of conflict between those who indulge in pure 

 scientific study and those who are in what we call the applied science, 

 and then a third conflict between those who are in the engineering 

 aspects of science and those who are in the categories such as biology 

 and so on. 



Now, I would like to have your comments on the potential for re- 

 solving some of this conflict because I can see from your answers to 

 the chairman that you people abhor politics, but may I suggest you 

 have a political problem in your own body in resolving and coming 



