1S9 



up with some kind of a consensus from wliicli we can operate and from 

 which we can evolve an appropriate national policy and without you 

 solving- that political problem, you are going to be leaving us to make 

 decisions in somewhat of a vacuum created by your own inabilities to 

 arrive at a consensus. 



So would you enlighten us with your comments. 



Dr. Kavanagh. First, I would like to comment that in the exercise 

 on the proposed International Decade of Ocean Exploration which we 

 engineers have gone through in the last 6 months or so wherein we 

 worked very closely with the scientific community — and by this I 

 include the people whom you call pure scientists who may be applied 

 scientists — was a tremendous success and there is no such conflict ex- 

 istent if the parties involved understand that engineers need scientists 

 as much as scientists need engineers. We work hand in glove together. 



These are the basic things. Thej' provide the knowledge. We apply 

 this knowledge. We, I say, as engineers apply this knowledge for the 

 benefit of mankind. There is no conflict of this type. I don't think that 

 it really exists or should exist. 



Mr. Hanxa. May I suggest that what appears to me to happen is 

 that when you get them into a specific exercise in which there is a mix 

 of the pure scientists and the applied scientists and the long-range 

 engineer and the practical engineer, this works well in a specific, but 

 as soon as they part company, they go into an abstract world and when 

 we ask for their comments, they get it from the abstract rather than 

 the real world, and I am suggesting to you that that isn't very helpful 

 and is there some possibility that we can get them to operate for us on 

 this more practical plane in which, as you have indicated, they have 

 demonstrated that there is no real conflict except that, for maybe 

 historical as well as hysterical reasons, they tend to conflict. 



Dr. Kavanagh. I can only comment that perhaps in my own view 

 you are asking the wrong person for the right answer. If you ask an 

 engineer, I think he is accustomed to answering the questions which I 

 gather j^ou want answered, what use is this to me or what can I do with 

 this. If you ask a theorist about this, naturally he is not as much close 

 to the problem as we are in engineering. But I am not saying that one 

 or the other can be dispensed with in any way at all. They are both 

 part of the total system. 



This system starts at the beginning with knowledge, and it ends 

 with man, and the f ruitfulness of his use of the resources of the earth. 

 This is the total picture, the systems view of the whole project. 



I must apologize to you that I have not a position statement with 

 respect to NOAA simply because I interpreted our particular Acad- 

 emy of Engineering, Ocean Engineering Committee, as in an engi- 

 neering sense we would provide you with the engineering data and the 

 alternatives and the possibilities necessary for a solution, for a decision 

 process, but the decision process is not ours. 



We can evaluate this as best we can in our mind and present these to 

 you, but we have not studied the problem in its complete implications, 

 which would include some political aspects in this particular case. 



Mr. Lennon. Will the gentleman yield at that point? 



Mr. Hanna. Yes. 



