253 



I think they shouki, thnt NO A A and NACO should be established 

 simultaneously. 



Mr. Keith, I have no further questions. 



I thank the witness for his comments. 



Mr. Lennon. Mr. Hanna ? 



Mr. Hanna. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 



Dr. Wakelin, you have most recently been associated with one of the 

 private companies involved in oceanography. Is it correct to assume 

 that if we can demonstrate to industry that they have more to gain than 

 they have to lose in terms oft heir own natural desires for activities 

 that produce profits, that we could get their support in terms of this 

 new agency setup ? 



Dr. Wakelin. I don't think there is any doubt of that at all, Mr. 

 Hanna. 



Mr. Hanna. Because there is, of course, a natural predilection for 

 people to be very conscious about what thej^ have to lose, and you have 

 to be very emphatic on what they have to gain, and I think that story 

 has been told pretty well. 



On the other hand, to get Government change, you have to use a 

 different approach. It seems to me that in changing the agencies, you 

 need a very firm position by the President and his immediate advisers. 

 Do you feel that this administration is prepared to make a very firm 

 stand in this regard ? 



Dr. Wakelin. Well, I cannot speak for the administration. I think 

 that, from what I know of their thinking on this, that they are still 

 studying the whole proposition, and I think that they wdll have a Gov- 

 ernment position sometime in June. 



Mr. Hanna. Do you agree with me that it would be very helpful if 

 they come out with a strong position ? 



Dr. Wakelin. I think it is almost imperative that they do; and, if 

 such a move were made to consolidate some of the groups that are 

 mentioned here in the report into an agency, it would have a profound 

 influence on the questions that we have been discussing with Mr. Pelly. 

 The Congress W'Ould then have to consider very seriously its role, and 

 the mechanisms by which it could look at an integrated picture, both 

 in the House and in the Senate. 



Mr. Hanna. I should not like to be interpreted as being cvnical, 

 but it is my observation that if you can demonstrate a utilization of 

 existing manpower in key spots in a manner which promises potential 

 improvement in their power structure, and a positive expectation of 

 increased funds, that this makes a second input to encourage restruc- 

 turing of those agencies. 



Would you agree with that ? 



Dr. Wakelin. Yes, indeed. Yes, sir. 



This could be done, of course, as the Environmental Science Services 

 Administration in Commerce was set up by reorganizational admin- 

 istrative action of the President. 



Mr. Hanna. I would think unless you could show that you were 

 going to give consideration to those persons who have characteristic- 

 ally been carrying out duties, and who have built up experiences, that 

 they might not come out and be against you, but you would never get 

 anvthing done, and you would wonder why. 



That "would be my experience. 



