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argue ubout whether we are destroying a subagency or not. You 

 would leave it to the best judgment of the people running the Depart- 

 ment to get the job done. 



Mr. Pelt.y. The word "independent," as far as agencies go is prob- 

 ably the most overworked and greatly exaggerated word tnere is be- 

 cause there is no such thing as an independent agency that I can find. 

 It all goes back to the Bureau of the Budget. 

 Mr. MosnER. Would the gentleman yield ? 

 Mr. Pelly. Yes. 



Mr. MosiiER. I would like to ask a quick question of Dr. Paulik. A 

 constituent of mine was arguing with me the other day and he was de- 

 fending the position of Peru in the argument over the fisheries, and 

 he claimed that the American fishermen in those waters were taking 

 catches of species that are prohibited to the Peruvian fishermen under 

 their own regulations ; in other words, that this is one basic reason for 

 Peru's action. Is there any truth to that ? 



Dr. Paulik. No, I don't believe there is any truth to that statement. 

 As far as I know we are taking only tuna in those waters, and Peru is 

 not harvesting these tuna resources. 



I think Peru is concerned about their anchovy fishery which is ex- 

 tremely large and is a very important part of their economy. They 

 iTiSij also be concerned about protecting some planned future entry 

 into the tuna fishery. 



Mr. Pelly. I am glad I yielded to the gentleman on that subject 

 because it gives me an opportunity to say that they have seized prac- 

 tically every one of our boats, several times using our own naval ves- 

 sels to do it, and never charged that they found anything but tuna on 

 them. All they wanted to do was fine us anyway. 



Mr. Lennox. It is interesting to observe at that point that in Febru- 

 ary 1959 the Committee on Oceanography of the National Academy of 

 Sciences issued its catalog with its introduction and summary of recom- 

 mendations, and it was because of this document that this subcommit- 

 tee was formed by the Committee on Merchant Marine and Fisheries. 

 You gentlemen are responsible, in fact — not speculation — responsible 

 for the bringing into being of the Subcommittee on Oceanography of 

 this committee. We are delighted to have you back home again. 

 Dr. Calhoun. I will have to j'ield to predecessors on this point. 

 Mr. Lennon. Now the gentleman from California. 

 Mr. Hanna. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 



I particularly want to note that Dr. Pritchard appears here as one 

 of the local boys who made good. I represent Santa Ana, where the 

 gentleman was born. I am delighted to have you here before the 

 committee. 



Mr. Chairman, I was particularly struck by a statement by Dr. 

 Calhoun in which he said, 'Tn all affairs of men there comes a time to 

 act." And it brought me back to a situation in law school in which the 

 professor had us working on one case for about a week trying to ana- 

 lyze why the judge decided, and after we Iiad given him all of the in- 

 tricate reevaluations of that puristic mind, he finally said, 'T think 

 you are all wrong. He decided it because the case had to be decided." 

 I think that is the kind of situation that we are ultimately in and 

 we Avill have to establish our role somewhat in a mix of what I under- 

 stand from the story of three umpires who had been through the 

 season and were meeting together and decided to exchange views on 



