485 



able to reorganize and restructure so that a NOAA is established would 

 it be better perhaps to consider that this be a separate office of XOAA 

 as opposed to being a separate office of HEW? 



Dr. Halstead. Mr. Chairman and Mr. Karth, may I comment on this 

 that unfortunately in Government and education and science we have 

 a way of f ractionatin<>- everything ; this is physics ; this is chemistry ; 

 this is astronomy and never are they going to meet. 



Unfortunately in nature they don't occur this way. While I have 

 been directing my remarks to the establishment of a National In- 

 stitute of Marine Medicine and Pharmacology if you were to appro- 

 priate money for the establishment of such an institution they would 

 still be directly dependent upon a solid groundwork that hopefully is 

 being laid in, for example, the Smithsonian Institution, the National 

 Science Foundation, or the Department of the Interior. 



You see, it depends on many of these things. 



Mr. Karth. I agree but one of the reasons, Doctor, why we are think- 

 ing favorably about setting up a NOAA is to bring the many splintered 

 parts of marine sciences and marine resources together under one head 

 to give it some direction. 



I am not so sure but that if we begin at the same time to fragment 

 certain parts of it, for example the recommendation you made, by 

 putting these things in existing agencies that really do not or will not 

 have the interest that a NOAA might have in it, that again we would 

 be fractionating or fragmentizing what we seek to bring together 

 under one head and give to it some impetus and direction and I might 

 say a reasonably decent level of funding. 



I just wanted to explore that with you. I don't suppose you have 

 any great feeling as to where it should be so long as it performs the 

 purpose intended. 



Dr. Halstead. I think your suggestion is certainly a very valid one 

 that it has to go into an integrated segment of Government. 



Mr. Karth. Just one final comment, Mr. Chairman. I know it is 

 getting late. 



In many instances in our grant-in-aid programs we spend fantastic 

 amounts of monej?^ if we really add up the programs that we fund. I 

 agree with you that in many instances these moneys are probably not 

 really spent in the best possible way and the systems management 

 approach is much better. 



On the other hand, of course, we need some grant-in-aid programs 

 because the grant-in-aid programs are primarily basic research in 

 character where the systems management approach is more or less 

 applied research and development. 



I don't mean to say that it can't be both basic research and applied 

 research and development but the fact of the matter is that in many 

 instances they don't go hand in hand because of the nature of the beast 

 of basic research. 



But I do agree with you that greater efforts I think ought to be 

 made to consolidate within one agency of the Government the basic 

 research that we do in the Nation because again there is a great deal 

 of duplication in our basic research effort, the Department of Defense, 

 NASA, the National Institute of Health, the National Science Foun- 

 dation and in many instances I am led to believe that one hand reaDy 

 don't know what the other is doins;. 



