DISCUSSION ON TWO PRECEDING PAPERS. 129 



getting away from these accidents. If I may use the phrase, we are standardizing our acci- 

 dents, we are standardizing our costs with a result that they have dropped from 7 per cent 

 down to less than 2 per cent. I wish Mr. Frank Smith would speak on this subject. I know 

 his company has been experimenting with the submarine signals. 



Mr. F. B. Smith, Member: — I have to say, so far as the Pittsburgh Steamship Com- 

 pany is concerned, that it is the largest shipowning company on the Lakes, and in fact the 

 largest under the American flag outside of the U. S. Navy. We have had these submarine 

 signals installed on all our ships, and, as Mr. Goulder says, it was a pretty hard proposi- 

 tion to get the men to take to the system kindly. The men who were to receive the great- 

 est benefits from the system were the hardest to get to adopt them. When the submarine 

 signals were first put in, some of our best navigators said they were able to sail their own 

 ships without any help from any patented device, and they did not approve of them, but since 

 they have been given time to use these things and think them over, these very same men 

 are the strongest advocates of the submarine signal system that we have. The men have the 

 right spirit in them, but they do not understand the theory of aids of that kind. 



We have frequently had reports where they have heard these submarine signaling bells 

 anywhere from 15 to 30 miles, and we have had reports of the bells being heard for a dis- 

 tance considerably more than that. Of course, the benefits derived from the system depend 

 very much on the sensitiveness of the hearing apparatus of the master. Some can distin- 

 guish down to one-quarter of a point, very easily, the direction of the bell, while others have 

 a greater variation, as they do not hear the bell as plainly — are not as sensitive in their hear- 

 ing. But with ordinary hearing, they have no trouble whatever in locating the direction of 

 the bells. It is certainly a great benefit and has undoubtedly saved a great many ground- 

 ings; and with this apparatus spoken of now, if it works successfully, that is the system of 

 intercommunication between the ships, it ought certainly to be a great thing in the preven- 

 tion of collisions. 



As Mr. Goulder has said, we have a system on the Lakes of routes, the same as is pro- 

 posed on the ocean by some of the lines, our up-bound ships taking the line nearest the shore 

 and the down-bound ship farther out into the lake. If that rule were followed to the letter it 

 would undoubtedly prevent a good many collisions which now occur, but just as with the 

 submarine bell at first, the captain wants to sail his own ship and take his own course. But 

 they are coming to it, for last winter the feeling in favor of it was so strong that by a vote 

 of the captains in the employ of the Pittsburgh Steamship Company it was made a perma- 

 nent order that the captains should follow the different courses laid out. We cannot control 

 all the other ships running on the Lakes, but we are controlling the matter as far as our own 

 line is concerned, and doing it on the recommendation of the men who are actively in the 

 service — on the recommendation of the captains of the ships. We are very much interested 

 in the submarine signaling, and the further it is carried forward, and the more perfect it be- 

 comes, the better we will be satisfied. 



The Chairman : — Mr. Goulder's reference to Captain Judson reminds me of Commo- 

 dore Van Santvoord who always owned the fastest boats on the Hudson River, and the line 

 founded by him still owns them — his orders were "always go astern of the other fellow, and 

 you will not get hit." 



