July 6, 191 1] 



NATURE 



23 



on the undesirability of having a rigid examina- 

 tion tor all students. But schoolmasters certainly desired 

 the Laying down of a general course which might be avail- 

 trie information of parents. 



Prof. Alfred Schwartz opened the question of specialised 

 examinations for university or college courses of 

 studv in engineering, and is of opinion that a satisfactory 

 standard of general education should be attained, and 

 should not include specialised subjects germane to engineer- 

 ing science. This examination should admit to all facul- 

 ties. The secondary-school training of the engineer should 

 be on as liberal lines as possible, since his subsequent 

 training i- largely materialistic. What is wanted in the 

 ing courses is a supply of students with a wide 

 mental outlook, whose faculties have been well trained 

 and evenly developed, and any specialisation in the 

 secondary schools at the expense of this liberal training is 

 to be deprecated. 



Mr. J. T. Jackson considered that entrance examinations 

 should be so framed as to be capable of being p; 

 students of good general education only. His own experi- 

 is that men who commenced engineering at an 

 early age were less successful generally than those who 

 commenced at a later age. 



Prof. W. C. Unwin considered that some early specialisa- 

 tion was desirable. Boys of eighteen, without such 

 specialisation, had to look forward to three years of study 

 and three years of practical work before being in a posi- 

 tion to take responsible posts. This would bring them to 

 lur years of age before they were capable of earn- 

 ing a living. Not much was asked for, but he thought 

 that a boy of eighteen might be expected to be prepared in 

 part for his future career. He did not agree, as the result 

 of his experience at Coopers Hill and at the Central 

 College, with Mr. Jackson's remarks regarding non-success 

 being due to an early start in engineering. Prof. H. J. 

 Spooner pointed out, in regard to mathematical training, 

 that students were now generally given courses in prac- 

 tical mathematics. The result is that few students now 

 took mathematics as a regular study, necessitating much 

 special cramming for mathematical examinations. 



In closing the discussion, Mr. B. Hall Blyth said that 

 he thought it would bear some good fruit if it resulted 

 only in the restoration of Euclid to its old place in the 

 schools. He agreed with the many speakers on the dangers 

 of cramming, and thought that the institution, whose own 

 examination was open to the charge, might take these 

 remarks to heart. 



Mr. R. Elliott-Cooper, as chairman of the section on 

 practical training, opened the proceedings in this section 

 hy saving that it was of importance that all should be 

 agreed, if possible, as to what practical training really 

 means. Real and useful practical training can be 

 obtained only under the actual or commercial conditions 

 which cannot be found in educational establishments. The 

 knowledge which young engineers may obtain from, say, 

 two years in the workshops of a contractor after his college 

 course is completed, should be supplemented by the experi- 

 ence to be gained in an engineer's office. Such experience 

 would include designing, drawing, specifying, and esti- 

 mating. In a few branches of the profession pupilage does 

 not occupy its former place, but, taking the profession as 

 a whole, inquiry shows that it still holds an important 

 position. 



Mr. Alfred F. Yarrow, in dealing with the apportion- 

 ment of training between practical work and scientific 

 study, took up the social aspect of the question, and gave 

 some suggestions applying to apprentices in or on works 

 far distant from their homes. He was of opinion that a 

 sandwich system of six months in the works and six 

 months at college was desirable. The student living at 

 home during his college term would be under good 

 influences and affectionate surroundings such n= were 

 impossible during a lengthy apprenticeship away from 

 home. London colleges especially should so arrange their 

 courses as to render this system available for their students. 

 Further, some member of the staff in the works should be 

 looked upon as an adviser to the apprentices. He should 

 be accessible at all times, and should make a point of 

 interviewing each lad at least once in three months and 

 ascertain if he could be of service to him. He should also 

 keep in touch with the work of lads attending evening 



no. 2175, vol. 8;] 



classes by personal visits to the local technical schools. 

 This system is of advantage both to apprentices and 

 employers, and would enable the latter to select wisely 

 those apprentices whom it is desirable to retain after the 

 termination of their apprenticeship. It is a notorious fact 

 that employers have often lost the services ot many cap- 

 able men through being ignorant of the talent that has 

 passed through their works. 



Mr. William H. Allen, dealing with the case of a 

 student determining to go both to college and to work-, 

 was of the opinion that the college course should be taken 

 first. In his experience this is the order of procedure in 

 which will be found the best chance of success. As 

 regards how much study should be undertaken by a pupil 

 during the period of his practical training, Mr. Allen 

 thought that, if a young man does his dutj conscientiously 

 in the works from 6 a.m. to o p.m., he will find that as 

 much as his health can stand, without burdening it 

 by further serious study at night. A period of training 

 in the workshops extending over three years is desirable, 

 and should not be specialised too greatly. 



Mr. F, E. Robertson referred to the deficiencies in the 

 knowledge of elementary science in young men trained in 

 locomotive works who present themselves to him for 

 examination for posts in India. Prof. Arnold said that his 

 experience had been quite different, and cited the case of 

 the Midland Railway, who handle the training of their 

 apprentices in an excellent manner. Prof. Arnold regretted 

 the modern drifting apart of the engineering side and the 

 metallurgical side in the training of engineers. Mr. E. R. 

 Dolby thought that too much was being attempted in the 

 training of an engineer, and that better results would be 

 obtained by subdivision, as is done in the architectural 

 profession. 



Mr. E. Benedict thought that people who accepted 

 premiums should also accept responsibility, and advocated 

 the deputing of someone to look after apprentices. 



Prof. E. G. Coker regretted the loss of engineering 

 establishments in London, and favoured a six months" 

 sandwich system. Prof. W. E. Dalby found that teach- 

 ing was much easier to workshop-trained youths than to 

 others. The sandwich system is best if it can be worked : 

 he had asked works to take pupils on this system, but had 

 not always met with success. The premium question pre- 

 sented a difficulty. 



Mr \V. B. Worthington, dealing with the question of 

 training in the engineer's office, said that engineering as 

 an art and profession is based upon the matter of design. 

 However good a man's training and experience on con- 

 structional works or in the shops may be, it will not, 

 without experience in the engineer's office, make him a 

 i ivil engineer, although it may make him a good mechanic 

 or contractor. 



Dr. VV. C. Unwin presided over a joint meeting of the 

 sections on scientific and practical training, and in opening 

 the proceedings gave a carefully considered statement of 

 the relations between the employers and college-trained 

 youths. This is printed in full elsewhere in the present 

 issue. 



Dealing with the relation of engineering employers and 

 colleges from the point of view of the practical training of 

 college students, Prof. J. E. Petavel thought that the 

 employer can cooperate in the educational work of the 

 university by a frank and friendly criticism of the methods 

 adopted, and by offering to take college graduates on a 

 six months' trial. 



Mr. James W. Home directed attention to the cases of 

 engineering firms who have developed a keen interest in 

 the better education of those apprentices who start at 

 sixteen years of age. Every encouragement is given to 

 attend evening classes, and several give facilities for attend- 

 ing college on one or two afternoons a week. By these 

 means many have reached a standard of education which 

 enables them to proceed to a college for two or three 

 years' courses. Such apprentices are a valuable asset to 

 the nation. 



Mr. Alexander Siemens did not consider it possible to 

 allow apprentices off on one or two afternoons a week. 

 Mr. Hall Blvth referred to the mistaken idea which some 

 engineering professors have that their students are ready, 

 on" leaving college, immediatelv to take a responsible place 

 in the works. "Sir Wm. White directed attention to the 



