i^^H 



Feb. Ms] 



THE NEW SPAPEK, 



[1844 





in **' 

 t. 



s bcSSSSmkw 52 



iiy***» 



HOUSE OF COMMONS 



fn- 



Mr. Ward 

 e side, and Mr. 



. The adjourned Debate on Ireland was ^fcenced by 

 _ rf«y-- T ^ * ipportof LordJ. Russ* IlSmo hon.- 

 Ca* B *Kr»eant Murphv follow^ n the same side 

 K^^2d% *CMUt ftpoke *** it.-Mr.C. Bullkr 



said 



were 



?*<TQ? l L MtteMwd/ It was an alienation of race and 

 Lo^oardr or k. d sluggish mass of six millions of dis- 

 H«*Ten» lifficultyto any Govern- 



dominant church could 



, lrciaDU • .uu .. i.™ ^ ernment would honestly 



iriblT pac • •> " re . jd ' ice9 Qf the people of England would be 

 .wrttke it, in* v j d towards the material prosperity 





reecn. uiiuh mc *,«" »*.«»*■••« ■ — — — — ■ 



• • v - • mmmittee of the whole House, which he would 

 *>?! 00 . rnadeTf he had not known it would be rejected, he 

 n ° Kli.n attack on the Administration, while at the same time 

 f 3 ° C ^d a pretext for working on the passions of the Irish 

 iSita b/fr^h allegations of insult and wrong. He looked upon 

 K P .u-eof inland vvith apprehension; and he knew no more 



renif ndou^ responsibility than that assumed by he members of 

 ihe™«e Government in identifying themselves with an agitation 

 so slsrnlinp. at the very moment when the Government had 

 ISJl £ vindicating the ordinary operation of the law, by 

 "rating the leader of a movement through which the passions 

 of the peorle were exasperated to madness, and the country 

 Sue" in imminent peril. Had the Government resorted to «- 

 -tranrdinarv powers r Had they strained any law ? On the con- 

 trarv. this -Irbitrarv and despotic Government had maintained 



n Ireland. nptUl JS43, a lower military forcethan in any previous 

 iear since the Union. But with 1843 commenced that pernicious 

 •citation which, with its multitudinous meetings and appeals to 

 pnTsical force, left the Government no alternative but to in- 

 crease the military in Ireland to an extent not only sufficient to 

 repress outrage, hut overawe insurrection. Had they not done 

 *V they would have deserved impeachment. They interfered— 

 too early or too late— but successfully, and without the exercise 

 of any bnt the ordinary powers of the law. But they were 

 accused of tampering with the jury list, and of striking off 

 Roman Catholics. The names dropped turn out to be only 24, 

 and the cau*e of it an accident in the hands of the registrar— 

 himself a Catholic ; and the Catholics challenged in the exercise 

 of an imperative duty have been proved by an affidavit of the 

 Crown Solicitor to be all Repealers. Chief Justice Pennefather 

 had been most indecently attacked. Why ? Had he misdirected 

 the jury on a point of law? Was not the bench unanimous? 

 Had not the jury clearly discriminated in their verdict as to the 

 guilt of the different traversers ? They had manifested their 

 respect for the sanctity of an oath, and had vindicated the 

 Government and the law by bringing the leaders of a dangerous 

 conspiracy to the bar of judgment. Giving some explanations 

 about his conduct when in opposition with respect to his Regis- 

 tration Bill, he passed to the subject, of the Irish Church. Was 

 there, he a^ked, to he no peace in Ireland unless it were sub- 

 v r.ed ? If Lord John Russell were in power to-morrow, he 

 dare not, could not, and would not attempt to give effect to 

 '• abstract " declarations made at a time so exciting as this. He 

 concurred with Lord Howick — the time for compromise was 

 cone by; and the question now was, will you or will you not 

 destroy the Established Church, secured as it was by statute, 

 settlement, and the repeated solemn disclaimers and assurances 

 of the Roman Catholics themselves ? Citing some of these 

 assurances, and reading that portion of the oath by which 

 Roman Catholic members of the Leg-islature bind themselves 

 not to subvert or destroy the Established Church, he put it to 

 their consciences if it did not restrain them from interfering 

 with it as an integral portion of the constitution. This country 

 "^Ijrfawed a Protestant monarchy as the best safeguard of its 

 ciruiibertieft; and that was incompatible with perfect equality, 

 "hat was , the eqnality which the supporters of this motion 

 aes.red ? Would they have Roman Catholic bishops, appointed 



tha u re ' Cn , po!entate ' to take tneir seats and vote as P eers in 

 Tue House of Lords? He was prepared to yield every civil im- 



mnmty and right which the Roman Catholics could possibly 



•nr^Ar '^ W .*l! herefore ready to J° in in removing any griev- 



ent P ro f » C! ' the> ' C ° U,d justI y complain. On this subject he 



I on Pal f° me detai,s ' and read * Portion of a speech by 



oTlh* 2*7 ' at ^ he Mme of P assin S Catholic Emancipation, 



band »<$ rillf'r 7 ° f any Union with a " sma11 and compact 



H^ cone ,?dPd « -fJ" Seek,n8: to subvert the Established Church. 



on toS '' h - an ™phatic declaration of his determina. 



Jw? tu 'I 8 ,nte Pit>-.-The debate was then adjourned. 



tiAiri'S^ ft TT0RNBV - GENERAL in answer to several ques- 



aaid thft ThpTf / c ° nnection of journalists with associations, 



well adv Jed 22°? ? the Irish Re P eal newspapers had been 



from the R P n2 l"" 1 e . xe . rcis *« a sound discretion in retiring 



S2i!hA A ?n Cl,tion ' and that gentlemen who were 



•alt their la«r «h ■ Corn Law Lea S«e would do well to con- 



X»>T^il. * d /! ra ?. n the Point.-Mr. Hixdlky and Mr. 



bev d ' • ?,Ve them a( 



on to an<werVpn! lt [ bnt P rote sted against being publicly called 

 The artiniir»U . ™ r . questions of what was or was not legal.— 



•ipport of i „rV i i « " Jre,ana was begui 



..:_,, ana Mr. Suv-rnv ««»*;«_«, i*. •», 



owed by Mr. Sidney 

 Mr. John O'Connell 



_J uned debate on Ireland was begun by Mr. Mobsman in 



I's motion, 



"»'dh»-warnna";.? MYTHK a g a » n st it. 



M convicted SnM^ 088 7, ho had beer > termed by Sir J. Graham 

 mining- time hit -T!'' He "tended to devote the short re- 

 ^Wancenffhpn SItbeleft to him ' not in deprecating the 

 «^t ca use for !»,pK V u r, T ent ' but in promoting to the utmost 

 HiUtion in IrpianH d the honour of beinsr convicted. The 



■Wore; and at tv» .. Wa * of the most Peaceful and constitutional 

 ** ciUed " sublim! „ mo " ster " meetings, which ought rather to 

 unprotected fe. \?i a sin ^ le accident bad occurred— even 



*? ^vernmcnr ir. Were 8ecnre . Referri ng to the proceedings 

 tbe House that th r, ppressln & tl, e Clontarf meeting, he assured 

 Jhe suburbs of r»?,t 1 ^ overnr «eiit proclamation was not posted in 

 Ute Rev. .vj r T „ 'Ii 11 1 untl1 Et was tQ o ^ a rk to be read j and the 

 ?^ ht «o make tii- f»? St his life °y hi ^ exertions during that 

 "bad been ^aid tJ.' 1 i Cnown and ca,m tne minds of the people. 

 J! 0nt arf; butuo.n ?f r * ' c onnell should have gone out to 



!J! 8 P r **nce arrmn »°* el what mi?ht have arisen from 



n«m to »a v anvthil? aD excited multitude ! It did not become 

 ^ornev.Ger,;" n & a bout the trials, except to declare that the 

 recommitted _ a ^ k " owled ?ed that a fraud in the pane! had 

 ** T0 *edtn«Ww*» *« ook a ' 1va ntage of it. As to the jury, 

 *« d sincerity of in ^* tthe venlict was given in all the honesty 

 * Qa tgood did thpv , ,, ate P re 3 ud >ce and bigotrv. But after all, 

 • 9Iri *h peoDUwI ea . yexpcctfrom these prosecutions? Would 

 JZfL** w tlie ma. VLl x more rec onciled to the union when 

 *?^ D ^ to > * h ° had serr ed them for forty-five years 

 , W nt Panose? V" n&con •«, serving them ? The Govern- 

 ^ ,h e nnmw a r mend the fra "chise ; but would they 

 ^L^Pire.a^h.H ? resentatives? Irefend was one-third 

 w?^ 00 - GnJS d 1 SShl ,n K y 5 Share of ooe-fifth in the repre- 

 o7 l ? "f°od fai, h in S.5« ^ d °?* if the Government would act 

 qL la " dl °^ ^nd te„ ft S ll r0f f* HCation ' but in the question 

 £2L ,0n ' an d the nm!-' • hey , had sfirred a most, dangerous 



Jl^^ches i, t h o v nt . WOnld not e3,cire hopes in the minds 



*«PPointment. Abs«Bteeis«i was the curse of Ire- 



land-it drained five : milbons annually from the country. G'it- 

 tothe Irish people the weans of employing their own canitaf 

 and promoting the. r industry ; it was worth the while of Knr- 

 land to try to conciliate Ireland She was willing to be con 

 *-*. but if Parliament continued their wrongs and insSts" 

 Vtr* H..« ' * conse <iaences.-Colonel VkL er oJSSS 

 on their nePOa i«.~.. ^ - H "^' 



and Captain 1/X^A i'n' Sup^Wted the motion. — Mr. riRRA\DWAv». 

 Lord John itusseH with the fndecorous encouragement which 

 he afforded to members Who had received a convicted conspi- 

 rator on his entrance into that house with cheers. He consi- 

 dered this sanction given by the noble Lord to those who had 

 set the laws at defiance was the last step in Whig degradation.— 

 Sir C. Napier was of opinion that the Clontarf meeting should 

 have been suppressed, but that bringing Mr. O'Connell to trial 

 was impolitic and unwise. As to the Repeal of the Union, that 

 was nonsense, and he did not think that even Mr. O'Connell 

 believed in the possibility of it. But he warned the Government 

 of the danger of sending Mr. O'Connell to prison. Ireland 

 might remain passive, but there was a passive resistance which 

 might be carried on, not merely by thousands, but by millions ; 

 in a time of war we might be placed in an extremely critical 

 position. Now was the time to do justice to Ireland ; and he 

 could not really see any danger to the Protestant Church by 

 giving the Roman Catholic prelates their titles, and making 

 decent provision for the priests. He set the house in laughter 

 by narrating what certain Presbyterian old ladies, relations of 

 his own, thought of the comparative de-merits of the Churches 

 of Rome and England ; and after some observations on religious 

 tolerance, he warned the Government that the Established 

 j Church in Ireland was contrary to human nature and common 

 sense, and would become a Catholic Emancipation question, 

 which would be carried at last, with a M thank-ye-for-nothing." 

 He was once seated on an Irish car, beside a decent young 

 woman, and in conversation she pointed out a man who owned 

 a small garden, and made the striking remark that he had 

 to pay the Protestant clergyman for sending him, as he thought, 

 to perdition, and also his priest to save him from going there. 

 It was hopeless to go on attempting as we had done for three 

 hundred years, to force the Established Church down the throats 

 of the Irish people ; and Lord Stanley in reading the Catholic 

 oath and contending that it tied up the hands of the Roman Ca- 

 tholic Members from any effort to get justice for Ireland, had 

 been guilty of a gross insult to their feelings.— Mr. J. O'Brikn 

 followed in support of the motion; Mr. M. Gork and Mr. M. 

 Milkes against it.— Mr. Macatjlay said it formed a prima facie 

 case for a Committee of Inquiry that a great country with so 

 many natural advantages as Ireland, and with a population 

 amounting to more than a fourth of the whole people of the 

 empire, should at this day be governed not by love but by force. 

 The original source of ill-will was the conquest and tyranny of 

 a race over a race. The Reformation had prevented in Ireland 

 that fusion of races which had taken place in England. What- 

 ever ideas had been associated in the minds of English Liberals 

 with their country's greatness, the ideas of religious and civil 

 liberty, and the names of King William and the Whigs, were 

 associated in the minds of the Irish Catholics with their own 

 degradation and oppression. He traced their sufferings through 

 the period of the penal laws ; and coming to the date of the 

 French Revolution, eulogised the policy ot Mr. Pitt, who had 

 sought to unite not inerelv the Crowns, but the hearts and affec- 

 tions of the people. Mr. Pitt had proposed to give franchise to 

 the Irish people, and a high and honourable station to their 

 clergy ; and if that great plan had been fulfilled, the Irish Union 

 would at this day be as impregnable as the Union with Scotland. 

 After censuring the Irish Government for not having earlier put 

 forth their proclamation against the meeting at Clontarf, he 

 came to the subject of the prosecutions. To warrant such pro- 

 ceedings it was not enough to have a case which would carry a 

 verdict and a conviction ; it was necessary to have a case which 

 would carry a general feeling of the Government's wisdom and 

 moderation. It was said that the people of Ireland were now 

 quiet. Yes, till the sentence, for fear of aggravating it against 

 their leader; but from the time a prison should close upon him 

 the difficulty would begin. Then his name would still remain 

 to stir up discontent; his presence would be wanted to allay 

 it. A Registration Bill was promised; but it must destroy 

 either the last remains of Irish representation, or the last 

 remains of Ministerial consistency. Lord Stanley had con- 

 tended that the Church must not be touched because the 

 Catholics, before their emancipation, disclaimed all intention 

 of touching the Church, but Lord Stanley himself had abo- 

 lished slaverv. although when the slave trade was first 

 assailed Mr. Wilberforce and all its oiher opponents used 

 to declare that not slavery but only the slave trade ought 

 to be abrogated. He trusted that Sir R- Peel would take a 

 broader view, would inquire not what had been said 40 years ago 

 about the Church, but whether the Irish Church was no* a good 

 or a bad institution, whether or not it accomplished i f s ends, 

 whether it was in reality the poor man's Church, the means of 

 comfort and of education to the people.— Sir W. Pollrtt (tne 

 Solicitor-general: described the motion as a party one and as in- 

 tended to give encouragement to those who had violated the law 

 in Ireland. That House was not the right place nor this the 

 fitting occasion to arraign the judicial proceedings of a court 

 which had yet to pass judgment on the parties convicted. He 

 would not question Lord John Russell's motives, but a deep re- 

 sponsibility rested on him and those who acted with him. The 

 noble lord 'had said that the Repeal of the Union was like the 

 question of the repeal of any other Act of Parliament. He con- 

 troverted that doctrine. There were certain Acts on which the 

 monarchy and the constitution rested— the Act of Settlement by 

 which Her Majesty holds her Crown, and the Acts of Union be- 

 tween Scotland and England and Great Britain and Ireland. 

 The Repeal Association In the pursuit of their object issued cards, 

 declaring that no power could make laws for Ireland but the 

 Crown and the Lords and Commons of Ireland, and they mar- 

 shalled the people under repeal wardens, gathered them in hun- 

 dreds of thousands and brought the country into a condition 

 which would not be tolerated in any civilised community. They 

 were told that now they had succeeded in obtaining a convic- 

 tion their difficulties were only hegun— that there was a danger 

 of an outbreak in Ireland. Were they to be compelled to 

 tolerate every culpable act from a fear of the consequences 

 of interference ? The Government had proceeded by ordinary 

 process; theindictment was framed on the recognised principles 

 of the common law ; the late Government, through Lord Camp- 

 bell, then Attorney-General, had successfully prosecuted Chart- 

 ists fior conspiracy, on an indictment in almost similar terms ; 

 and because one of the parties in the present case, Mr. O'Con- 

 nell, was a person of eminence— was that a reason why he 

 should be relieved from those penalties to which in England in- 

 dividuals were compelled to submit ? It was for the offence of 

 attempting to intimidate the Government and the Legislature, 

 by assembling multitudinous masses of people, that Mr. O'Con- 

 nell and his associates had been tried and convicted ; and if out 

 of a special panel of 71 6 persons a jury could not be obtained 

 competent to try the case, then trial by jury was impossible In 

 Ireland. The instructions of the Government were expressly 

 that all Repealers, be they Protestant or Catholic, should be 



Tuesday.— Mr. K, Cochrane presented a petition from the" 

 £m1 of Dundonald, prs? 1D £ f <* an extension of his patent for 

 revolving steam- engine^ f'* r J * years. The petition was ordered 

 to be printed v*3th the votes.— Jn reply to Mr. Hume, the Chan- 

 cellor or the E>'CBfEQtJER stated that the Government were 

 engaged in negotiations for a Post-office treaty with the United 

 . States of America.— Oh the' motion of Mr. Hlme, the appoint- 

 I ment cf a select committee to inquire Into the nature and extent 

 of smuggling and frauds committed on the revenue was agreed 

 to.— The adjourned debate on Irish affairs was opened by Mr. 

 Hawks, who was followed by the O'Conhor Dos, Mr. E. 

 Rullbr, and Mr. Gisborne, in support of Lord J. Russell's 

 motion; while Lord C. Hamilton-. Sir W. JAMus.Mr. Lascbi.lbs, 

 and Mr. Stafpord O'Brien* spoke in favour of Government.— 

 Sir T. Wiloe said that when a country with so many natural 

 advantages as Ireland had been so long unhappy, it was but 

 reasonable to inquire into the policy by which she had been 

 governed. All courses had been tried but one— that of good 

 faith and justice. The Union had been a imion but in name ; it 

 had not given to Ireland that share in her own government 

 which she was entitled to expect. Emancipation, too, had been 

 but nominal. It had been said that a civil war would be prefer- 

 able to a Repeal of the Union ; but how long would the English 

 nation allow such a war to continue ? Ireland demands a change 

 in her Church Establishment; your answer is, "The Union 

 forbids it ;" and to this she has a right to reply, ** Then Repeal 

 that Union." The form of the indictment on the late prosecu- 

 tions—for meeting to excite dissatisfaction and overawe the 

 Legislature- lrad long existed ; but it had been generally stig- 

 matised in Westminster Hall. The law had been truly stated by 

 the Lord Chief Justice of Ireland— that it was conspiracy to 

 combine, either by lawful means for an unlawful object, or by 

 unlawful means for a lawful object. Which of these offences 

 was that of Mr. O'Connell? By this law, the opponents of the 

 New Poor Law, or the law of slaveiy. might just as well have 

 been indicted. Undoubtedly the language of Mr. O'Connell had 

 been wholly unjustifiable ; but it was untrue that his meetings 

 had been of a nature to overawe the Legislature. It was not 

 Mr. O'Connell who had shaken the people's confidence in tho 

 administration of justice in Ireland; the Judge's charge had 

 been deficient in what belonged to the duty of a judge, redundant 

 in what belonged to the b^iness of a counsel. The Government 

 had with extraordinary holiness claimed credit for having been 

 actuated by a merciful feeling towards the trav er se rs in taking a 

 special rather than a common jury. Why, the Government 

 durst not take a common jury, because, though their right of 

 challenge to such a jury would have been unlimited, yet it was 

 a right which they would not have ventured upon exercising to 

 any considerable extent, unless where there was some objection 

 which they could openly assigu agains-t the individual juror; 

 but the special jury they could strike in secret. Sir T. Wilde 

 then went, with much detail of censure, into the circumstances 

 which occurred in the preparation of the Jury- lists. He alleged 

 them to be frauds and he cared not whether tiie Government 

 were a party to those frauds ; they took the benefit of them. He 

 knew, all Westminster-hall knew, how the English Attorney- 

 General would have behaved in such a case; for in the hands of 

 the English Attorney-General the law and the Government were 

 respected by all. The effect was that 27 Catholics were omitted 

 from the special jury-list, and the Government having got that 

 list almost clear of Catholics resolved to keep it so. The Irish 

 Attorney-General had grossly mistaken his duty. Let it not be 

 said that the Government thought this matter unimportant; 

 they thought the importance of it so great that they were fain 

 to purchase it even at the price of dishonour. Mr. O'Connell's 

 acquittal by a fair jury would have done more good in Ireland 

 than his conviction under circumstances like these. Such a 

 conviction Mr. O'Connell was entitled to treat as illegal, and 

 thereiore a nullity. This was said to be a party motion, and in 

 one sense it was so ; it was the motion of the party which had 

 always interested itself for Ireland, but it was not a motion in- 

 tended to shake the official tenure of the Government. He 

 hoped however that this debate would have the effect of drawing 

 from Sir R. Peel an explicit statement of his future Irish policy. 

 — Mr. Shaw gave an explanation of what had happened in tne Re- 

 corder's office respecting the jury-lists, and positively denied that 

 there was any omission of more than the 24 names which he had 

 accounted for on a preceding night.— Sir T. Wii.de made a 

 counter-explanation.— The debate was then adjourned. 



Wednesday. — The County Coroner*' Bill was read a second time. 

 Some objections were urged to the bill, but it was subsequently ad- 

 mitted that these objections referred to the details, and that the 

 proper time to raise them would be when the bill had got into com- 

 mittee.— On the motion for going into committee on the Horse- 

 racing Penalties Suspension BUI, Mr. Bright, on the part of Mr. 

 Christie, moved that it be an instruction to the committee to extend 

 the provisions of the Bill to all proceedings of common informers 

 under the authority of any penal statute. — The motion was seconded 

 by Mr. Christie in a speech of considerable length, and was sup- 

 ported by several gentlemen on the Opposition side of the House. — 

 Mr. Craven* Bkukkley said he could not concur in the proposed 

 amendment, because its effect would he to suspend the law upon, 

 many most important points.— After some lurther discussion, the 

 gallery was 'cleared ior a division, but none followed, Mr. Bright 

 Saving agreed to withdraw the proposed instruction.— The House 

 then went into committee, and Lord Howick moved an amendment 

 to prevent the bill from extending to future bets, as well as to those 

 over which it was the immediate object of the proposed measure to 

 throw its shield.— Sir J. Graham thought the bill would be very 

 imperfect if it did not extend its protection to future as well as to 

 past bets. Many gentlemen had made bets with the intention of 

 " hedging," and it would be very hard upon them to come forward 

 now and tell them that they should not be allowed to do so.— Lord 

 Howick said he would meet that objection by fixing a day, and 

 enacting that the protection of the bill should not extend to any bets 

 made after that dav, or the 1st of March next.— Captain Rous 

 said that many men of small capital who had opened books on the 

 Derby would be utterlv ruined if they were precluded from hedging 

 after the first of March next. It was a great pity that honourable 

 gentlemen opposite insisted on meddling with a matter of which they 

 understood nothing. There was no need of interfering with betting 

 at all. and as to talking of the immorality of betting, ti.at was all hum- 

 bug.- Lord Howick insiste.l upon his amendment, and the gallery 

 was a-ain cleared for a division, but none took place, it having 

 meanwhile been agreed to adopt the principle of the noble Lord's 

 amendment, the 1st of June being the day fixed instead of the 1st ot 

 "March.— The several clauses of the bill having been agreed to, adis- 

 cusaion arose on the preamble, objection having been made to cer- 

 tain words which appeared to assign ignorance of the law as a pretext 

 for infringing it.— Sir R.Pkel thought it was not expedient to adopt 

 the principle which the words seemed to sanction.— Mr. T. Dun- 

 combe opposed their omission ; and on a division he was defeated 

 by 81. to 27.— The adjourned debate on Ireland was opened by the 

 Irish Attorney-Gexeral, who began by saying he thought 

 the best thing he could do was to go through all the steps 

 he had taken in the late trials in consecutive order. Within a few 

 days after the informations had been sworn, the streets of Dublin 

 were placarded with bills holding out as a Government spy and a 

 wilful perjurer the principal witness for the Crown, Mr. Hughes, a 

 gentleman to whose honour and integrity Mr. O'Connell himself had 

 borne testimonv in the course of the trial. The bill was sent before 



wnnl. of .-^nation t*m LorU Jc* HW .he debate wa s Xh^^Sd'lSL ££S Th." Seq'uiid th. ***. 



asain anjourned. r r r 



